Children should be potty trained by the time they start school....

[Littlepurpleprincess]

According to This Morning I am 'lazy' and 'unskilled' because DS wasn't potty trained when he started school! He was FOUR and he tried his level best. We worked with him and our health visitor for 2 years to get him potty trained.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT LAZY?!

I am childminder and have potty trained many children. HOW IS THAT UNSKILLED?

I do wish people who new sod all about child development would stop commenting on other peoples parenting skills!

Any other additional need and people wouldn't dare say it's down to poor parenting on National TV!

IMHO theres a window of opportunity with potty training and it comes between 1.5 and 2.5 - if you miss it you make the whole process take much longer. I have had 4, the girls were dry (completely day time) just after 2 and night by 2.5. The boys were about 5 months longer. If I was a preschool I wouldn't be keen in dealing with nappies, its pretty grim when your the mum let alone having to change someone elses childs nappy when they are 3/4/5.

I think we have got lax at training them, my mum swears I was dry day and night by 1 and a half, but there again she was using terrys (I'm 40) so the emphasis was to get rid of nappies asap, these days with pull ups and dry nights it doesn't encourage you to stop using them

cloudwine, speak to your school- there is no need for a witness in the situation you describe.

From NUT guidance:

there is no legal requirement for 2 adults to be present in such circumstances and that such a requirement might in any case be impractical.

margo- this is just in the nature of caring for small children. They do sometimes have accidents.

I absolutely agree, but the incidents I mentioned are not occasional. We have three children who I feel are not yet toilet trained, and are having 'accidents' most days. They each have a change of clothes in school, but this is often not enough. We often have to find extra clothes for these children, who get upset that they do not want to wear something that is not 'theirs'.

We are also not supposed to clean 'intimate areas' without asking the parents for permission. Again, making a phone call takes staff away from teaching time.

I do find it frustrating telling the rest of the class that we do not have time to cook/ go to the hall etc and will "have to do it next week instead". Staffing ratios are simply not taken into account when we accept children with certain needs into school.

I just wanted to give an insight from the schools perpective.

Thanks tethersend I didn't know that. I do think it's reassuring for another member of staff to be present still just incase questions are ever asked though.

You school is being very over-zealous, cloudwine. There is no legal requirement to phone parents for permission to clean a child's intimate areas.

Teachers act in loco parentis, i.e. as a reasonably prudent parent would.

Teachers cannot be compelled to change a child, but to do nothing (such as direct a member of support staff to change them) is negligent.

If the school's regulations around changing children are impacting negatively on the learning of other children as you describe, then the school needs to change its policy.

My DS is changedevery day at school and he has 2 adults to do it (His 1-2-1 and another TA) because of CP issues. I suppose it safeguards the adults as much as the child.

There's a difference between "potty trained" and accident-free. Many children with excellent bladder and bowel control have accidents due to stool withholding and constipation.

Could anyone shed any light on the preschool issue?
My dd is 2.9 and is just about to start at a playgroup and we were told sue needed to be out of nappies before she started (not a problem-she trained last summer without too much trouble).

Are they allowed to have that rule? My friend is having to wait until her son (same age) is trained before he starts.

No, there is no legal requirement to have two adults. All staff should be police checked. Safeguarding procedures don't require there to be two members of staff changing a child.

I understand why some schools think they have to do this, but they don't- and it makes no sense to do this when it impacts on other children's learning.

IceCream, from Unison guidance:

The Disability Discrimination Act and Staffing Implications

The DDA provides protection for anyone who has a physical, sensory or mental impairment that has an adverse effect on his/her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. The effect must be substantial and long-term. It is clear therefore that anyone with a named condition that affects aspects of personal development must not be discriminated against. Education providers have an obligation to meet the needs of children with delayed personal development in the same way as they would meet the individual needs of children with delayed language, or any other kind of delayed development. For instance children should not be excluded from normal pre-school activities solely because of incontinence.

Any admission policy that sets a blanket standard of continence, or any other aspect of development, for all children is discriminatory and therefore unlawful under the Act. All such issues have to be dealt with on an individual basis, and settings/schools are expected to make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of each child.

It would seem that the pre school are acting unlawfully with their admissions criteria.

Hmm- interesting. I wonder how they would react if challenged on it.

Perhaps speak to the LEA (assuming they are in any way LEA funded) and let them challenge them on it?

cloudwine I accept your point but sometimes it can be hard to tell if a child has not been potty trained or if they have and they are just having accidents.

I had absolutely potty trained my daughter and she was just having accidents at school (not anywhere else). the School absolutely did not believe me. I even offered to bring in my Sainsbury's bill so they could see I wasn't buying nappies. It was an extraordinary situation and I felt the teachers were so keen to badge me as one of "those" parents that they had no interest in listening to me. In the end the parent-teacher liaison officer was brought in who basically told the school to stop being ridiculous.

It strikes me also that most of the posters on here and on the potty training threads have tried and tried and tried and their child is just not getting it. So they have been trained (ie, the parent has done their bit) but the child can't do it/isn't ready/whatever. In which case don't we all just have to live with it? My nephew (slightly OT) still bed wets multiple times every single solitary night and he's nearly 10. The idea that my Dsis has not tried absolutely everything (inc drugs, consultants, alarms, just waiting, etc etc etc) or that he himself has not tried his very very hardest is just wrong. It's a shame for him but that's where he's at and hopefully he will grow out of it.

Isn't just another skill, like any other and they all get there eventually but just having motivated parents isn't always enough. It certainly isn't with reading so why would it be with potty training?

Worth mentioning that we tried everything with DD (3.3yo) since she was 2. Nothing worked.

On Sunday, she got up and said "I'm going to do a wee in the potty now", and has not worn a nappy since. No accidents. I did nothing; why am I now suddenly a better parent because she decided to start using the potty/toilet?

Whoa, it should be exceptional that a child cannot use a toilet at school!!!! And I would imagine, sn as the exception, that it is usually down to feckless parents.

Tethersend you tried everything and she got it at 3-what exactly was your problem?You got the job done and she went to school dry.

There are many parents not trying everything and enjoying the ease of pull ups because there is no incentive not to.

Re 2 members of staff,I think you'd have to be barking mad not to go with another member of staff to be frank in a school.Kids aren't babies and sometimes they can have parents who may or may not like to cause trouble.Would not be putting myself in the position of accusations if I hacked somebody off.Staff have every right for their own protection to insist on somebody going with them.

Margo your sister's son will grow out of it. My DS was wetting at 12 which was very distressing for him and myself and now he is fine. he was fine in the day from about 2 so it was just one of those things. We used to go to the clinic constantly and he had an alarm. he was just a deep sleeper.

I expect we'll be tarred with this brush then :( DD (4.10 and in Reception) has messed herself most days in the last month or so. She goes through phases of doing it, then it stops and she's fine for months, then it starts again. We've been to GP and no obvious reason for it.

She's been dry at night since she was 3 but daytime wetting has been an ongoing problem. Nursery used to dispair of the 3-4 wet pairs of pants a day. It's not that she hasn't been trained, but that she forgets to go until it's too late. There was some issue at nursery that they thought she didn't get the "signal" she needed to go until it was too late. (She does have sensory processing issues)

Having said that, her sister, who I took out of nappies at 2.3, because that's what you did 20 years ago, continued to regularly wet herself until she was 5 or 6. My brother did the same and my mum always says she thought she'd be following him up the aisle with a potty, which suggests to me a genetic link.

My DS1 hated wearing nappies, and once he was 2.5 just decided he wasn't going to wear them anymore and that was that. No accidents. DS3 was still in nappies at almost 4, but not for want of trying.

The biggest difference I think, is that children used to start school at 'rising-five'. Now they start at 4. So those children who would always have been slightly later trained are now in school, whereas they wouldn't have been.

FWIW DD has been perfectly capable of dressing herself since before she was 3. Nursery was always impressed by how well she managed alone. Yet at school the TA always dresses/ undresses her. I'm sure they think I haven't bothered teaching her - she isn't going to admit she can do it when they'll do it for her. I'm going to mention it at the next parents evening.

Thanks MrsHeffley. It is about protecting me and my job if anybody has an issue with how I have 'cleaned' their child.

I don't have the answers to this one, I just know from my own experiences, that we are having more toileting incidents than when I first started in the job. Teachers are being asked to hit a huge number of ridiculous 'targets' for these young children, and judged harshly if they do not. All well and good, but some of these children are not telling us that they're sitting in their own poo. Surely that is a priority

"Tethersend you tried everything and she got it at 3-what exactly was your problem?You got the job done and she went to school dry."

Err.. I don't have a problem? My point is that I am no better a parent than I was last week. DD decided to use the potty, it was nothing I did. Or was I a feckless parent last week and a prudent one this?

As a teacher working very closely with CP issues and having worked with children with severe SN, I would disagree about having two members of staff to change a child. It is unnecessary; the risk of accusation is far smaller than the risk to the other children of having their education disrupted, and there is no legal requirement to do so.

Cloudwine you're not alone,I have several friends complaining about this.It does have an impact on the class as a whole to just pretend it doesn't is wrong.How on earth can it not?

Tethersend it's not your decision to make for other people.

Re your child you did it by 3 some parents simply don't even bother trying(I've met plenty on the pre school run)and you tried everything. Consistently trying is different to not even bothering to try and trying once not liking the mess and immediately reverting to pull ups.

People are using pull ups as pants.They think because they can pull them up and down they're akin to pants and kids will miraculously start pulling them up and down to do a wee.

They don't because they're nappies and if they're busy it's far easier to stay put and carry on playing.If they had wee running down their legs resulting in cold wet pants they'd go to a toilet in the majority of cases.

DD is 3y2m and not close to potty-trained.

When she showed an interest in potties/pants at 2y10m I went for it. I hadn't tried previously because she showed no signs of readiness at all, and even then she wasn't showing an signs of awareness about weeing and pooing.

So we explained it, went into pants, and did the full-on commitment. For three days. At the end of which we'd had two wees on the potty, and 9 accidents per day on the floor. Despite great kindness and understanding DD was curled up on the sofa, crying, refusing to sit on the potty and holding an obvious wee for over an hour until she exploded everywhere. She barely said a word to anyone, was subdued and depressed, and kept repeating slightly confused stories about her toys in which they were naughty and in trouble and did things wrong.

At which point we stopped completely and took everything away (after a brief row because she wanted to stay in the pants but not wee in the potty). She clearly wasn't emotionally ready to cope with the accidents and nor did she seem aware of what she was doing - the potty wees were flukes.

She still now does not tell us if she's pooed. When summer comes round I will stick her outside naked and see if she can tune in to her own cues a bit more. But clearly not all children are the same.

I think it does have to do with children starting younger, but also perhaps a greater sensitivity to the needs of individual children. To get her to train I would need to bully her into it, and I'm not going to do that. I hope she will figure it out in the next year.

You tried for 3 days

Not exactly sure why you needed to row with her.I did all 3 of mine including twins at 2 and 2 months.It took between a week to two weeks of wee,shit everywhere and a few accidents after because errr they're learning and I predicted the mess.

I never once shouted,scolded or pressured them.We got books about potty training with pictures of wee on on the floor.I expected mess so certainly never told them off.They had choc raisins/Smarties as rewards,new pants,foam washable pads in the buggy/car etc and loved the whole thing.

Weeing on the floor doesn't make kids depressed scolding parents does.