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Sad story re gay parents - what do you think?

246 replies

Nettee · 06/02/2012 17:15

here

Don't know what the right answer is to this one can see all the parents' point of view. And such a shame the good friendship has fallen to pieces too. Not even sure what would be best for the little boy - a proper relationship with his dad or a stable family life with one home and two parents and a known biological father.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 20:25

so if he popped up and said to a court 'as of now i demand my parental rights' then he would get access, just as with this chap? (assuming he does, that is, but the public mood is clearly that as a gay couple of two wanting to have a child, the only recourse is to an anonymous donor).

LeninGrad · 09/02/2012 20:31

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Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:31

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LeninGrad · 09/02/2012 20:33

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Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:37

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AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 20:38

"The legal rights of both parents have been taken into account by the adoption, and the future of the child is assured should something happen to Lenin."

will they? even if he was off the bc?

of course it works when it works and doesn't when it doesn't. what i don't get and never got on this thread were the nasty comments about the women involved, to the effect that they are selfish, immature, stupid etc.

i think it's very telling that they have not withdrawn all contact, to be honest. from the last paras of the piece with the quotes from teh QC they seem merely to be saying 'slow down'. and Lenin says it feels to young at two for him to be pushing like this, and i would feel the same. but then my kids were three before they went to stay overnight with anyone, it was just around then that i felt comfortable. it didn't stop them forming brilliant bonds with their family and friends.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 20:39

actually, i should say before dh and i felt comfortable with tehm going overnight. he was soppier about it than i was. Grin [father-hating]

Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:42

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PattiMayor · 09/02/2012 20:44

"The legal rights of both parents have been taken into account by the adoption, and the future of the child is assured should something happen to Lenin."

But that's not right, Mary. If something (god forbid) happens to Lenin, then her partner is the adoptive parent. The bio dad has no rights unless he decides to do a horrid DNA battle. Surely that's the case with your children too? If something happens to you, your children don't revert to the birth parent do they? You are the adoptive parent, which means your rights supersede those of the birth parent.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 20:47

gotcha.

LOADS of people have said nasty things about the women on here, i've been really shocked by it tbh.

i was thinking about the 'marriage of convenience' btw. if they're all wealthy and in london, one was probably forrin, either the man or one of the mothers, and married for work visa stuff (what other reasons are there?). presumably this might make any move towards asserting parental rights all the more threatening, particularly if it's the father who is from elsewhere.

Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:49

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AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 20:51

one wonders if the intention was to adopt but all went to the wall when the father fell in love?

Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:57

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PattiMayor · 09/02/2012 20:57

Sorry Mary, I misunderstood your post. Apologies

Maryz · 09/02/2012 20:59

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Hullygully · 09/02/2012 21:09

It's a minefield

where's Jodi Thingy when you need her?

LeninGrad · 09/02/2012 21:21

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AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 21:25

oh and have just read back and realised i missed a post from theparanoidandroid, must say it's a bit fucking shit when people purposely paraphrase what i've written to their own ends and Then Put Quote Marks around it to make it look like they've lifted what i've said directly. Shock

don't know what the deal is with surrogacy here, Maryz, but am certain i read (probably in daily mail, though) of dads paying paternity for children that they never saw because the surrogates changed their minds and it all went tits-up.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 21:26

yes, lenin, that makes sense as he seems to be putting forward a 'three parents, two homes' proposal that they find unnacceptable.

Maryz · 09/02/2012 21:27

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FarelyKnuts · 09/02/2012 21:30

You are right Maryz, and is a big worry for parents such as myself and my DP as we used a known donor. My DP CANT adopt OUR child due to Irish Law not recognising children of same sex couples. Our only (flimsy) cover is that our donor is not named on the birth cert and we have an agreement drawn up and signed between us (though prob not worth the paper its written on.
And I also am pretty fucking offended by some of the attitudes on her about pseudo parents etc. Self righteous much?

LeninGrad · 09/02/2012 21:34

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AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 09/02/2012 21:45

are you speculating that he was married to the mother because they were both heterosexual at the time, maryz? seems much more likely that it was a marriage of convenience to get work visas... (of course speculation again but i think you might be reading far too much into the marriage thing, i know heaps of aussies/yanks who did this to stay in london.)

and remember, being 'present at the birth' is never a quote in the piece so we have know way of surmising whether or not he was in the room or waiting with other friends/parents etc. the quote from his lawyer has it that "The father was at the hospital for his son's birth and held him shortly afterwards."

ReneeVivien · 09/02/2012 21:48

Thank god I read to the bottom of this thread, because the early posts made me so angry and upset I couldn't believe I was on MN. "Pseudo mother'? "Just a stepmother"?? Angry And so many people who quite simply don't get the issues involved with lesbian parenting.

First off it needs saying that we do not know nearly enough about what happened in this case to be able to pronounce who is in the wrong.

It is NOT easy to create an alternative family within current legal and social structures, that's for sure. Sounds like the mothers tried to set up an arrangement with a male friend in which they would be primary parents but he would be known and involved. That is exactly my family set-up. It is what many lesbians try to do because they don't want to risk their dc growing up distressed that they can't know anything about their paternal lineage. It is a damn hard thing to get right. You need to find a man who is mature, loving and responsible enough to be involved in the child's life - and also sensitive, flexible and self-aware enough to be able to anticipate how his feelings may alter after birth and be able to handle that.

You can set this up, you can write a contract (we did), but it is not legally enforceable. (It is not clear whether these parents had a written contract.) Our dd's dad insisted he wanted to be on the birth certificate and therefore adoption is not possible for us. We felt it best for our dd to have her father named, and to give what we consider very reasonable access (a full weekend every fortnight, often pops in on the other weekend, some holidays). Frankly, she loves him but would rather see him less (she is a little homebody) but we make her go because it's the deal and we want their relationship to flourish. But it is NOT the same as being a child who had two primary parents, one of whom then moved out. He has NEVER been her primary parent and she is much closer to her non-biological mother, who has no legal relationship to her. This makes us feel very vulnerable but we are convinced it is best for our child, who loves all her three parents.

It is completely insulting to basically say to lesbian parents that the only two options we should be entitled to are anonymous sperm donation or being the same as divorced heterosexuals. Those who say 'sexuality is irrelevant' are wrong, actually. This is about lesbians (and, usually, gay men) trying to find new ways to parent and be in families. It is tough and risky and demands great flexibility and generosity and ability to understand the child's real needs. There have been many times when I could have cheerfully throttled my dd's father, but he is loving and responsible and has great integrity, and I have great respect for him and for the promises we made before conception. Equally, I am certain that he often finds it difficult and painful to accept his role as third parent, but he knows his daughter benefits hugely from a strong and secure primary family unit.

Who knows what went on with this family? It is easy to focus on the access hours, but isn't the real issue that he is trying to assert himself as a primary, though non-resident, parent? If my dd's dad did that I would feel furious and betrayed, and would fight him all the way. On the other hand, it is possible that the mothers made promises (explicit or implicit) about his involvement that they are now finding inconvenient to honour, and gradually freezing him out - which is just not on. Lesbians and gay men need to be especially honourable in these situations, and try to avoid resorting to a legal system that does not recognise or understand our families or our lives.

LeninGrad · 09/02/2012 21:55

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