Sad story re gay parents - what do you think?

[Nettee]

here

Don't know what the right answer is to this one can see all the parents' point of view. And such a shame the good friendship has fallen to pieces too. Not even sure what would be best for the little boy - a proper relationship with his dad or a stable family life with one home and two parents and a known biological father.

but it seems to me that you are saying that its all his fault, he made it toxic, he should wait, he should appease....and that the women should have it all their way? And you are clearly expecting the father to wait until the child has their say, which could be a long time, if at all.

How many I know is beside the point, since all situations are different and since neither of us know the people involved in this case, its all theoretical anyway.

i just mention it as the majority of people seem to be comparing the situation with a divorce, with which this has very little in common.

i think that the step towards a court absolutely always makes a bad situation worse. i have no idea (nor do you) as to the journey to the bad situation, whether he was quick or slow to involve lawyers.

however, if you read what the women themselves are saying, it seems to me that they just don't want their kid going on overnights with him until their family feels more established, but the fact that he's perfectly welcome to see him at larger family occasions definitely gives him a role, one that is imo better defined by the child and three parents than by a court.

oh how generous of them "you can see your son at large family celebrations"
tickety-boo, totally fair. They don't want their kid going on overnights? Its his kid too!

Seems a redundant argument to say that its better decided by the parents than the court. If they could have come to a mutually agreeable resolution, they wouldn't be in the court at all.

This is a bit silly, isn't it?

None of us were at the original decision-making meeting, none of us can know who said what/agreed what, who is now reneging and who is being fair/unfair.

Well if I read it correctly he wants to gradually increase until he gets overnight & holidays.

And he has wanted this since his son was born.

If the women don´t feel that the family is established after 2yrs, when will they?

Aitch, I am curious as to why you are laying all the blame for the creation of such a toxic atmosphere solely at the feet of the father here. It seems to me that the mothers are being just as dogmatic and unwilling to compromise as the father is. Yet you seem to believe that the mothers' proposals for contact should hold absolute sway and that if he dare go against that then any ill-feeling so caused is purely down to him.

You're not usually so absolutely black and white about things. Why is this particular situation one where you feel that this man is without question the bad guy here?

true hully, its a theoretical argument, which is why I find it odd to take such an arbitrary and unusual stance rather than an obvious "all parents equal" neutrality.

If I was donating eggs there is no way that I would do it anonymously, and no way that I would just bow out of the DCs life. I don't see that donating sperm is any different and why you have to be relegated -unless you either agreed to be anonymous or had a written, legally binding agreement before the DC was born.

There were a lot of assumptions made before this DC was born and probably no counselling-I expect the father thought it was 'just sperm and no big deal' -not understanding that once he was born it was 'a child and a very big deal'.

Unless they have a legally drawn up contract that he was nothing more than a sperm donor (which apparently they do not) then he should be able t play his part as a father.

This is all about the right's of the child and he has a right to build a relationship with his father. The mothers should be making this possible.

yy I used to have little altruistic egg donating fantasies and then I thought I would never be able to rest knowing a child made of half my genetic material was out in the world. Too weird.

What utterly stupid people and a crazy situation. Poor child.

i'm not being at all black and white about this, tbh i find the assertion that i am absolutely crazy when all i've argued for is that if he'd bided his time he'd likely have got what he wanted within their continued friendship, which is actually better for his son.

however i'm definitely not sucked in by the fiction of all parents being equal, unlike you Paranoid. i'm very pro the mother having more of an automatic right to primary residency etc, barring incompetence and i think the idea that men and women are equal when it comes to parenting a bit liberal bullshitty tbh. women tend to do the crudwork when it comes to raising a child, i do actually think that this gives them more right to say what happens. now of course you can say that 'oh this guy has never had the chance to do the crudwork' but even in great partnerships this imbalance is what i observe with... oh, ya know... pretty much every single family i have ever met... and 99% of the posts on MN.

he made a deal with them, he should have thought it through every bit as much as they should, so all the nasty posts slagging them off as selfish, dictating, that they should grow up etc can equally be laid at his door. none of us knows the circumstances, so no-one should be slagging off either set of parents, but so many nasty things have been said about the women on this thread, without being challenged.

re the 'you're not usually like this' line, Snorbs... what exactly does that mean? that i don't usually disagree with you? seems a bit of an deliberately undermining thing to say...

ok, that makes it all clearer. At least you're honest.

I don't recognise the picture you paint though, its not even remotely true for my family or those I know. You sound quite bitter and very anti-fathers.

and you sound quite bizarre... are you really saying, in the face of all and every piece of research that has ever been done into the subject, that men and women contribute equally to childcare?

Erm research? And who said "equally"? You asserted that women do it all, which is frankly bollocks, and says more about your own set up than anyone elses.

gawd almighty. when did i say 'women do it all'? why are you making this so personal? do i know you from somewhere?

TheParanoidAndroid Wed 08-Feb-12 15:00:21
true hully, its a theoretical argument, which is why I find it odd to take such an arbitrary and unusual stance rather than an obvious "all parents equal" neutrality.

here: "however i'm definitely not sucked in by the fiction of all parents being equal, unlike you Paranoid. i'm very pro the mother having more of an automatic right to primary residency etc, barring incompetence and i think the idea that men and women are equal when it comes to parenting a bit liberal bullshitty tbh. women tend to do the crudwork when it comes to raising a child, i do actually think that this gives them more right to say what happens. now of course you can say that 'oh this guy has never had the chance to do the crudwork' but even in great partnerships this imbalance is what i observe with... oh, ya know... pretty much every single family i have ever met... and 99% of the posts on MN. "

It's not personal at all, except where you based all your opinions on yourself and everyone you know. You said women do the crudwork and have more rights than men. I'm challenging that assumption. In my family we are equal same as in most two parent families I know.

I don't know you at all, why would I? I found your attitude odd (and I'm not the only one, several others said so too) and enquired further, and then disagreed with you. If you have a problem with that why are you discussing your opinions on a debate forum?

so now that we're looking at that post, where you say that 'all parents equal', can you quickly outline for me what you think is my 'arbitrary and unusual stance', please? i take it that this will also clarify what is 'odd' about it. because i don't have a clue what you think i think at this stage, so rather feel like i am punching into the wind.

i'm amazed that you don't think posting to someone 'You sound quite bitter and very anti-fathers' isn't personal, tbh.

also, i didn't base the idea that 'women tend to do most of the crudwork' on me and my friends, such as you selectively quoted, good lord MN backs that up on a daily basis. as does any research on gender roles in the home... i'm absolutely gob-smacked that you are arguing otherwise. have a read of this for starters,some research to keep you ticking over while i go over to the Feminism Boards and tell them to shut up shop.

As I said, I think your notion that a father should give up his parental role to keep the peace is unusual, and arbitrary in the sense that you don't know the situation.

I will apologise for "bitter" though, that was unfair and was not really what I meant, it was lazy wording and unfair of me. I have to stick to somewhat anti fathers (as a role, rather than a man hating notion or anything though) since your comments do support that, imho.

how does saying that women do most of the shitwork equate to being 'anti-fathers'? or have i said something else? do please clarify.

and i'd like you to explain what exactly my 'odd' position is re this father. are you sure 'odd' is the word? do you mean 'not paranoidandroid's opinion'?

in the meantime, here you might be interested in this, as it explores the paradox that women do most of the shitwork but in partnerships men and women agree that it's 'fair'. ?
"As in previous studies,(listed below), housework and child care were said to be performed disproportionately by women." this is a bit of a side alley to go down, i appreciate, but i provide the info because you scoffed so at the idea of research into the area.

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women do most of the crudwork when i comes to raising a child ?.....yeah ...tell that to David and Elton.

.

that system is generally that the women do most of it, droves...