Diane Abbott....racist comment or not?

[festi]

I think If you look and consider what she said in the context of the discussuion she was having. I believe she has a very valid point, she did make a generalised remark and by definition that was racist, but, it was in my opinion acceptable for her to generate discussion and break down the barriers that exist (the fear of counter accusations of racism) in discussuing the exposure openly.

If a White politician made a statement that White mothers would go to the wall for their children, I would expect that politician to be sacked. Why is it OK for DA to make a racist and generalised comment? Sack her. She is utterly offensive.

Sorry, my nazi iPad insists on capitalising 'white'.

'I think that her rise is down to "positive discrimination" and people pleasing.' I agree WhingingNinja. She is an example of why I don't like discrimination. She's been promoted above her ability imo.

Of course it does.

She is talking about the balance of political power, in which case she could say white, male, rich and privately educated.

I think David Cameron's and George Osborne's rise is down to positive discrimination. White boys who went to Eton get lots of help along the way.

Ed Millipede who isn't that great has obvoiusly been helped in the white boy stakes too.

What has that got to do with her making racist comments thunderbolts

I don't think anybody is saying that the white majority isn't racist here are they?

Minorities can be racist!

Racism requires prejudice plus power, power in this case being a white dominated society where white men hold the majority of social economic and political power. Racism is a political term describing something quite specific - people being oppressed by a more powerful group because of the colour of their skin. So no, black people can't be "racist" against whites in this country. Prejudiced maybe, but then a black person might have good reason. Racism is still common in the UK.

I always Iiked Oonagh King...

By that definition I would say Dianne Abbott - who is a well-known name, who gets listened to and whose tweets get read by a lot of people (as opposed to say, me, who is lucky to get one reply to her tweets....) - has a certain amount of "power" and is using this "power" to make racist comments. Or am I missing the point?

Of course racism is common in the UK. I doubt there are many who would dispute that.
Of course you can have racist views without having any power!

This debate is about whether or not her statement was racist.

Would a group of school boys calling a classmate a racist word, not be deemed racist then because in the grand scheme of things, they don't have much power.

Don't overcomplicate this.

Yes Black people can be racist against whites.

You're talking cobblers now.

So when my sister was called a ' white ' (as she was being mugged, so not getting into a fight or having a go at anyone, nor trying to dominate anyone), that was just a prejudice, not racism? And when I began working in England and used to get some pretty nasty anti-scottish comments flung my way, that wasn't really racist?

"Racism requires prejudice plus power,"
disgaree entirely, racism is the belief that ones own race is superior to another. It may include the belief that it is then ok to act on these beleifs or discriminate against another. but even if we accept your position there are plenty of instances where a black person will have the power in an individual capacity even if they may not be in a national position of dominanace.
As such, even accepting your position, "So no, black people can't be "racist" against whites in this country." is an absolute nonsence. A boss could discriminate against an employee, a minority group may attack a white person based on their skin colour. In both those instances they hold the power and are using that power to abuse another based on their skin colour.

But silly me that's ok, because even when they are acting abhorrently "but then a black person might have good reason"

Just to properly define racist for those who are unclear and think that only white people can be racist......

racism[rey-siz-uhm]  

rac·ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA
noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Also add to the fact that this is an MP we're talking about. So no issue of power there.

thunder ... did you really type "a black person might have a good reason"

Not a religious woman, but holy mary mother of god.

WTF are you talking about?

Might have a good reason?

You are having a laugh aren't you?

thanks MN for the sp correction on her name. been studying all day and Im off on school run so going to catch up with the thread later on. .

Racism requires power?

So if a single white mother, ill educated and on benefits calls her well educated, wealthy Asian barrister neighbour a."bastard paki" that would be ok because she has no power whilst he has plenty?

How ridiculous.

thunderboltsandlightning in another talking absolute bollocks shocker......

The problem I have here is that although you can always look up the word in a dictionary there is no fixed definition of the word "racist". You could frame a definition which includes only a small minority of people (e.g. who actively mean harm to people of a different race) or one that includes pretty much all of us, on the basis that no one is perfect.

There is probably a statistical tendency for much of the population to associate preferentially with members of their own ethnic group, though not excusively so. Does that constitute racism? Depends on your definition.

The American economist Thomas Sowell (who himself happens to be black) once - tongue in cheek - defined "racist" as "a conservative who is winning an argument with a liberal".

I would class Abbott's remarks as crass and bigoted but defend her right to express these thoughts. However it would seem to compromise her ability to represent her white constituents properly. I'm not in favour of prosecuting anyone for expressing their opinions, however offensive some may find them.

I recall Carol Thatcher being sacked from the One Show for a remark made in private in the green room which, though ill-advised, was unlikely to have been intended maliciously.

Of course, mindful of its reputation for even-handedness no doubt the BBC will be her removing her from the sofa she shares with Michael Portillo on Andrew Neil's Politics Show

Oh yes, the BBC will keep her on the sofa, for sure, although if Micheal Portillo said something similar he would be off it in a jiffy.

Diane Abbott has made a racist statement and there is no justification for saying such a widesweeping thing about any group of people. I don't buy all this "black people can't be racist" nonsense that a friend of Diane Abbott's was trying to argue on TV a few minutes ago.

Hmmmm. Just remembering an Indian girl I knew telling me that her father had said 'there goes the neighbourhood - house prices will go down' when a Muslim family moved in next door.

Of course you don't have to be in power to be racist. Nowhere in the dictionary does it define power as a necessary attribute of racism. A belief in superiority maybe, but you can believe you are superior without having power.

As for Abbott - she lost any right to be taken seriously when she professed to be a Socialist and sent her child to private school.

Taking her seriously requires being able to believe two impossible things before breakfast.

Why do you need power to be racist, and why does that mean Abbott was not racist. she has more power than the average EDL or BNP member. She made a generalisation about people based on their skin colour, that is racist, just as her comment about west-indian mothers, and Finnish nursers were racist. Racism is wrong, thats it.

Thunder,
Your comment is one of the most racist I have seen on MN.

imo she is a racist and should be sacked

I can't see why you need to have power to be a racist either but MPs do have power and she's a shadow minister too, so that argument doesn't work in this case even if it was a valid generalisation.