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Original poster

12 week old baby - protest to the Attorney General about leniency of the sentence

198 replies

georginars · 12/01/2006 12:02

Ok, I have just been listening to LBC and they had a guest on from Phoenix Survivors Trust who was herself prostituted, with her sisters, from babyhood. Her name is Shy Keenan.

Obviously we're all appalled by this crime, but we should also be appalled by the leniency of the sentent. Apparently, if anyone objects to a sentence handed down, we can raise our objections to the Attorney General and the volume of complaints will be taken into account. The lady siad that they have already had some sentencs increased so it's got to be a worth a go, hasn't it!

I don't think you can email the AG, but here are his contact details:

ATTORNEY GENERAL
The Rt Hon Lord Goldsmith QC

ADDRESS
Attorney General?s Chambers
9 Buckingham Gate
London
SW1E 6JP
Tel: 020 7271 2400
FAX: 020 7271 2454

You need to give the details of the case in your letter. these are (and I apologise for naming these 'people', but it's in a good cause)
Alan Webster - sentenced to life, with a recommendation to serve a minimum of 12 years - and can apply for parole after 6 years.
Tanya French - sentenced to 5 years.
The case was heard at St Albans Crown Court and the judge was Findlay Baker QC.

So, shall we give it a go? I'm going to be doing it as it seems to be something concrete we can do. I'm not generally much of a crusader and I don't speak out much, but I thought I should bring this to your attention as I didn't know how many people would head the radio.

OP posts:
ruty · 17/01/2006 12:00

No one is going to paediatricians' front doors and throwing molotov cocktails Cod! i don't honestly think writing a considered email to protest against a fairly short sentence is a hysterical response. Paedophliles are the most likely out of all criminals to re offend. Obviously the system is not working, so of course mothers are going to feel anxious about protecting their children.

franch · 17/01/2006 14:49

Saw headlines today and was hoping there'd be something on MN about this. Thank you georginars for starting this. I've emailed the Legal Secretariat address, plus my MP. It's the only way I can make myself feel marginally less furious about this.

Meanoldmummy · 17/01/2006 14:55

I sent this email, and got an acknowledgement today. It's a bit rushed and sounds a bit pompous but I was angry. I think the more people who send emails/write the better.

To Whom It May Concern

I would like to add my support to the rising tide of disgust and outrage at the derisory sentences handed down to Alan Webster and Tanya French following their conviction for the repeated rape of a three month old infant. This is one of the most violent and brutal crimes ever prosecuted in this country and the penalties should have reflected this, as well as the unimaginable suffering inflicted upon the victim and her family. The message conveyed by the sentences as they stand is that the violent rape of a tiny child is not a serious enough crime to merit a sentence greater than that which could have been meted out to a criminal convicted of property damage or fraud. I add my formal request to the others being made that the sentences be increased to the maximum allowable for this despicable and cowardly crime. There can certainly be no justification for the sentences not being served in full by both of the guilty parties.

Yours faithfully

suzywong · 17/01/2006 15:07

cod
don't see what more info there could possibly be

you do know what they did to this baby don't you?

Original poster
georginars · 17/01/2006 15:14

think cod may be being maligned here - she has agreed with me and I started the thread! Not sure

OP posts:
Radley · 17/01/2006 15:17

There is now a form in the sun newspaper which can be filled in and sent to the attourney general

HappyMumof2 · 17/01/2006 16:23

Message withdrawn

NotQuiteCockney · 17/01/2006 16:34

I think anyone who does anything like this is by definition severely mentally disturbed. I don't see how prison helps, I don't see how anything other than psychiatric treatment (and incarceration) is appropriate.

That being said, I don't know the facts behind the case, and am frankly happy not to know.

Original poster
georginars · 17/01/2006 17:01

Oh definitely NQC - prison will not cure this. He will do it again, so should not be let out full stop IMO, the crime has been deemed worthy of a life sentence, so where on earth does the minimum recommendation come from?
But I also think we need to look at the way we punish child abuse, because prison doesn't help - and indeed I worry that it fosters a sense of persecution (and the usual treatment meted out to child abusers in prison can only add to this) in many child abusers, many of whom seem to believe that what they do is somehow justifiable.
The problem is, none of us want to know and address the details, becasue they are too revolting and too upsetting, and it is easier to react emotionally and wish we could exact revenge on the perpetrators with the same disregard for humanity that they showed to their victims. Somebody, I don't know who and I don't know how, needs to address how we actually do treat child abusers and how the legal system enables this. Incarceration, yes, but who the hell wants to work in places where the criminally insane are imprisoned - that's one of the main problems, isn't it, that these places attract the wrong sort of people to work there, and the 'right' sort of people find it very hard to cope.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that it doesn't include releasing someone capable of this crime back onto the streets, with no rehabilitation - he will, as sure as anything, reoffend. I don't know how I can help, but I do know that I can try to make it less likely that he'll be out in 12 years, and at the moment that's the only constructive thing I can do. And now I know about it, I'll be doing it again.
I've gone on, I'm sorry, but I just feel so strongly that this is unjust. I've said it elsewhere; I don't want to encourage paranoia, I don't think our children aren't safe to do anything, I don't want to cause mass hysteria. I just want to feel that in these, thankfully, rare cases, justice is being done.
sorry for rant!

OP posts:
cod · 17/01/2006 17:03

Message withdrawn

Original poster
georginars · 17/01/2006 17:08

oh I sort of meant to say that Cod but I got carried away. yes, it's easy to say people are mentally disturbed becasue it's a kind of explanation - because most of us just can't come up with any other reasonable explanation as it's so unthinkable.

OP posts:
edam · 17/01/2006 17:14

It's also bloody unfair to people who do suffer from real mental illness to lump unspeakable criminals like this in with them. As if we are tarring people with mental health problems with the same brush.

Most people who do evil things are perfectly sane and perfectly responsible for their actions.

Kathlean · 17/01/2006 17:17

I have to say I loath it when someone turns around and says they did it because they were abused as a child and they cannot help it.

I was abused and I would never EVER harm a child. It is wrong and just because it happened to someone should not give them a 'reason'.

Not saying these people were abused just my bit of a rant.

NotQuiteCockney · 17/01/2006 17:35

Well, however they seem to you or I, I'm sure they are mentally disturbed. This isn't a crime like, getting drunk and driving, without thinking about it, or embezzling money, or finally snapping and hitting one's MIL on the head with a saucepan. This isn't something that a non-disturbed person would want to do, or would do by accident.

They may be otherwise somewhat functional human beings. But anyone who has sexual feelings for a 12-week-old is broken, and should be getting treatment, not prison.

(And no, I don't think them being disturbed, or having been abused, makes this 'right'. And no, I don't think most people with mental illness are dangerous.)

HappyMumof2 · 17/01/2006 17:45

Message withdrawn

ruty · 17/01/2006 17:49

i don't know whether paedophiles are mentally ill or not. they obviously feel compelled to do what they do. It seems that no one really knows how to 'treat' them as they are actually untreatable. They can only take the pills prescribed to reduce urges voluntarily [why is this?] so either life sentences need to be handed out and mean life, or they need to be institutionalized. Very difficult.

NotQuiteCockney · 17/01/2006 17:53

A friend of mine knew someone involved in treating pedophiles. Apparently there are a wide range of different types of pedophiles, with different causes, behaviour, and treatments. Some are untreatable, some can apparently be sorted with some therapy. It varies.

ruty · 17/01/2006 18:06

thats interesting NQC.

NotQuiteCockney · 17/01/2006 18:15

She went into the details of it a bit ... I think some of them just don't know how to interact with adult women. Some are developmentally stuck (in sexual terms) as children. Some just like hurting people, and children are easier to hurt. Obviously, the different kinds vary in how dangerous they are.

I remember she said there were four kinds, but I can't remember all of them. At any rate, some of them were fixable, and some weren't.

ruty · 17/01/2006 18:24

that makes sense. i guess the question is do we allow the untreatable ones to live amongst us in ordinary society.

NotQuiteCockney · 17/01/2006 19:07

I'd have to say, no, we shouldn't.

The weird thing is, though, from what I remember, you can't (forcibly) keep someone in a psychiatric institution if their disorder isn't treatable. Which makes a certain sense, but doesn't really help with these people.

Pfer · 18/01/2006 08:15

Doesn't really help anyone else either does it? If the disorder means they can be a danger to others I mean.

Pfer · 18/01/2006 08:18

Kathlean - I agree! One of my closest friends was seriously abused for years by her adoptive parents and though she bears the scars she is one of the kindest most giving people I have every met. She has children of her own and is one of the best mums I have met, giving nothing but love, not wanting her children to have the same childhood as she had. You can't blame your own bad behaviour on your upbringing, it's passing the buck.

kittyfish · 18/01/2006 15:18

bump

UCM · 18/01/2006 23:37

Saw a copy of the Sun today and apparently they have started up a campaign over this as well. So people are outraged everywhere.