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Original poster

12 week old baby - protest to the Attorney General about leniency of the sentence

198 replies

georginars · 12/01/2006 12:02

Ok, I have just been listening to LBC and they had a guest on from Phoenix Survivors Trust who was herself prostituted, with her sisters, from babyhood. Her name is Shy Keenan.

Obviously we're all appalled by this crime, but we should also be appalled by the leniency of the sentent. Apparently, if anyone objects to a sentence handed down, we can raise our objections to the Attorney General and the volume of complaints will be taken into account. The lady siad that they have already had some sentencs increased so it's got to be a worth a go, hasn't it!

I don't think you can email the AG, but here are his contact details:

ATTORNEY GENERAL
The Rt Hon Lord Goldsmith QC

ADDRESS
Attorney General?s Chambers
9 Buckingham Gate
London
SW1E 6JP
Tel: 020 7271 2400
FAX: 020 7271 2454

You need to give the details of the case in your letter. these are (and I apologise for naming these 'people', but it's in a good cause)
Alan Webster - sentenced to life, with a recommendation to serve a minimum of 12 years - and can apply for parole after 6 years.
Tanya French - sentenced to 5 years.
The case was heard at St Albans Crown Court and the judge was Findlay Baker QC.

So, shall we give it a go? I'm going to be doing it as it seems to be something concrete we can do. I'm not generally much of a crusader and I don't speak out much, but I thought I should bring this to your attention as I didn't know how many people would head the radio.

OP posts:
BonyM · 13/01/2006 21:40

Heard about this a couple of days ago and was sickened and horrified, but didn't know that the sentences were so lenient. What the hell is wrong with the "justice" system in this country?

Death is too good for these twisted people - I hope they rot.

Have emailed.

ediemay · 13/01/2006 21:50

I've had the reply email too. Thanks again georginars, for getting us all to act

UCM · 13/01/2006 22:29

Keep bumping as everyone else might not know

lanismum · 13/01/2006 23:08

sent my e mail.

Original poster
georginars · 13/01/2006 23:15

Great everyone! No idea if the minimum recs will get extended, but this has got to be better than doing nothing, really glad so many of you have done it.

It was James O'Brien on LBC who had Shy Keenan on the phone and brought this whole thing to my attention. I'm worried some people may think I'm being hysterical about this, but frankly I don't care - I just think that in this case life should mean nothing else other than life. And I think that acting in this way, contacting the Attorney General, may actually produce results, as it has apparently done so in the past.

Yes, I don't think there's any chance he will actually be out in 6 years (or even 12), but it's the principle that theoretically he could apply to be out then that really, really bothers me,; as well as the fact that we all think "great, he's got life" and then discover that what we all think is life isn't at all...

OP posts:
beetlejuice73 · 14/01/2006 00:21

Good thinking Georginars. Well done.

UCM · 14/01/2006 01:16

Georginars, stop it now. I will not have you apologising for something that I, UCM have done.

It was my decision to blanket post everyone, not yours.

All you did was quite bravely, tell us all about it. It was my decision to take it further.

You should be applauded in my opinion.

PeachyClair · 14/01/2006 09:24

If that creature serves 12 years only, he (it? that?) will still be out when the poor girl is 14 / 15. Just at an age when you're coming to term with sexuality, your body, working on your GCSE's, making plans- then this has to be faced. The sentencers should be (able to? don't know if they can) taking that into account surely?

kittyfish · 14/01/2006 10:14

Well I for one think that you did the right thing UCM. I know it is a horrid and deeply upsetting subject but it must be better to face up to these things than turn away and ignore them. I am sorry if this upsets people but ignoring bad stuff of any kind must be wrong especially when the bad stuff involves such vulnerable people. Maybe if we all stood up and said 'No this isn't acceptable' a bit more often this world would be a safer and more pleasant place to live.

HellKat · 14/01/2006 10:19

Sent email

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:21

I think posting this on random threads all over was incredibly rude. I don't think any mumsnetters think what these two "people" did was fine. Nobody is saying "never mind, let them off".

But shouting at everyone, randomly, about it, doesn't impress anyone.

And, sorry to be skeptical, but all this email will just break their email system, or at best, get thrown away. A lot of emails, particularly cut and paste ones, will not be anywhere near as convincing as phone calls and letters. Not least because it's incredibly easy for one person to send a hundred emails, all from different accounts.

PeachyClair · 14/01/2006 10:28

You can only do your best. And if people ignore e-mails then they'll ignore letters. I see no reason why UCM shouldn't have done the posting, and I applaud both her and Georginar for standing up for something they believe in- more people should do it. Well done you guys. You did no harm, don't feel bad UCM.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:31

Oh, and I read news articles about this, and they just said he was given "life". I didn't see anything about the recommended 12 year sentence. Where can I find an article that goes into this?

kittyfish · 14/01/2006 10:36

NQC - nice to see such cynicism, I guess you don't vote either cos it never changes anything. I have already had a reply to my email as have several other people here and if we crash the system so what? Might make them sit up and think. Also most spam comes from one server so it is easy to see if just one person has generated alot of mail.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:38

Um, yes, I vote. I do care.

I just know enough about the internet to know that online petitions etc are generally ignored. Because it's very easy for just a few people to look like hundreds, online.

Has anyone had a non-computer-generated reply to their email?

And no, spam doesn't generally all come from one server. If it did, it would be much easier to stop.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:39

And yeah, generally, if someone's computer gets a distributed denial of service attack (which is what this would count as, if enough people mailed to broke the gov't system), they say "evil hackers", not "gee, maybe we did something wrong and should reconsider our decision!".

Phone calls and physical letters count for more.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:41

Oh, and I found a news article saying the judge had recommended a minimum of 12 years before he was considered for release.

12 years still doesn't sound like long enough, but what would?

It's a pretty nasty case.

kittyfish · 14/01/2006 10:43

I think there is a difference between 'evil hackers' and a bunch of women emailing about Alan Webster. The dificulty in preventing spam comes from the fact that so many of these people are abraod and therefore outside UK jurisdiction.

NotQuiteCockney · 14/01/2006 10:49

Yes, there's a difference between spam and this. But there isn't a big difference between this, and a DDOS attack that takes out, say an animal research site.

And jurisdiction is the least of the problem with spam.

peacedove · 14/01/2006 11:14

in this electronic age, emails do count.

Whether computer-generated replies or not, a large number of emails will make someone take a pile of printouts to the concerned person, and the protest will be registered, and there will be a paper trail.

God forbid, should a similar abhorrent crime occur again, the government will have known people have protested.

emailing MPs is also important.

I, too, applaud all those who have brought this to our notice, and suggested a practical way to protest.

Original poster
georginars · 14/01/2006 11:43

The physical address of the Attorney General is given in the original post for sending letter. I did point out that separate and different letters have much more impact than identikit letters and online petitions - believe me I am very anti spam.

Another poster (Stich) has phoned the AG's office and they confirmed that they have received a large number of complaints and are aware that these are genuinely thought out objections, and actually recommended that she send in an email. Emails couched in the terms of a written letter will generally be treated as written letters, ones couched as cut and pasted spam will not.

UCM has apologised profusely for her actions, let's not let the furore cloud the original point I was getting at - which is that this should be a dignified, legal and recognised way to protest, rather than baying for blood and punishment in a way that's never going to become reality. In this case, I agree that it's difficult to say what would be a suitable minimum term to recommend, so why not say there will be no chance of release at all - I'm sure that's possible.

OP posts:
MarsOnLife · 14/01/2006 12:18

Have emailed

kittyfish · 14/01/2006 14:30

NQC - not quite sure what you are getting at with your last post but agree with georginars that this is a side issue. The important thing is to register our disgust at the sentencing with the AG within 28 days and I think whether we do it by phone, fax, letter, email or in person doesn't matter as long as we do it.

Rhubarb · 14/01/2006 15:22

I don't care how my attention is drawn to this, I used to go around harrassing people about the one-child policy in China and the law that allows babies to be terminated whilst they are being born! not to mention the women forced into it, I could go on but I won't. I'm sure a lot of people thought I was very rude as I used every medium available to me to highlight the cause. But at the end of the day, that is the only way to get results. I could contact 100 people and only 5 would respond, but that kept me going, it was worth harrassing those hundred for the 5 that came forward!

And yes I got lots of people saying, well what can you do about it? The Chinese government won't listen to an English girl! Well the founder of the charity I worked for has made huge progress and now lives in Hong Kong to work more closely with the Chinese government and the various government agencies to try and change this policy.

I have sent an email, but I'll also send a letter too, just to be sure.

And as for the sentencing. Yes he got 12 years minimum, but this was a judge's recommendation, he is eligible for parole after 6 years. The woman got 5 years, it doesn't say when her parole date will be, but you can bet she won't actually serve 5 years.

So thank you georginars and all those who have highlighted this to me and others. I hope that we really do make a difference and I'd be willing to do the same again.

Hadalifeonce · 14/01/2006 15:45

Is there any way that MN'ers could present a 'united' complaint via the media?