Dale Farm Eviction

[niceguy2]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-15163750

It seems sanity has prevailed. Let's hope there are no more delays and the site is cleared ASAP

Mary one family didnt buy the land, the community did

Can anyone find a link to what and how many council properties were offered. I do not believe that the council could offer all these people adequate housing.

"The girls and boys are usually sent to school until they turn 12-14, then are taken out to learn whatever trade the family is involved in. On top of learning the trade, girls also are assigned domestic duties."

This is illegal.

You can disagree with it, but that doesn't mean it isn't true or that it's ridiculous.

As for the various judges over the years -- eight years of success in the courts and two years of failure indicates to me that there is a bit of disagreement in the legal community about what exactly is lawful.

Why is it illegal?

I dont think it is.

It may not be desirable but how is it illegal?

I do disagree with it, and I consider it rather ridiculous. You don't think it's ridiculous of course - that's subjectivity for you.

Unless you know the history of the court proceedings it doesn't really suggest any such thing. More, it suggests that European legislation has encroached in a way that the travellers have used to try to prolong the situation. There are two ways of seeing everything.

I must admit, I didn't think there were two ways of looking at girls being removed from school into domestic slavery at the age of twelve. But there's a first time for everything.

It's illegal: I believe in the non-traveller community efforts are being made to punish parents for the children's truanting.

If it is illegal, then how does a council attempt to address the situation when the families and children are pushed out of the community and scattered elsewhere?

I don't think the council in this case cares.

The cultural dissonance that is so visible between Travellers and society at large is also present in the education system. There are both push and pull factors responsible for the dropping out from formal education. Children who live in a mostly illiterate environment where a lot of verbal give and take between adults and children is acceptable find school very difficult. The curriculum, featuring abstract learning, is not very accessible to them. The same could be said for a lot of the children at the bottom of the educational heap in the UK. The net effects are the same for both settled and Traveller or Romany children.

www.travellerstimes.org.uk/blog.aspx?c=f1b1c82c-0f3c-4edf-98cd-502ea80ed8fa&n=2ae17f48-0ff1-4c12-9422-61979ea47cd1

Some good points are raised here, good on them for refusing to live on a drug addled council esate like many others have to.

I'm not sure why you are trying to blame the authorities for every problem the traveller community has. Are they children? Have they no responsibility for their own fortunes?

If the travellers want to travel in Britain, they need to home educate their children appropriately to stay within the law.

If the travellers want to settle in Britain and educate their children in schools, they need to settle according to British law.

If they find themselves unable to do so, or dislike British planning or education legislation, they are free to travel out of the country.

If they chose to confront the legislation within the country then action will be taken.

Bing bang bong. Straight up and down. Everyone has choices - the travellers have taken the fourth option.

Children who live in a mostly illiterate environment where a lot of verbal give and take between adults and children is acceptable find school very difficult. The curriculum, featuring abstract learning, is not very accessible to them.

Is this an attempted excuse for allowing badly brought up children to truant school and be put to domestic slavery at the age of twelve?

It reads that way. Feel free to try to disabuse me. It won't be easy.

I may or may not think it's ridiculous. I don't think I offered any personal opinion on it.

'Unless you know the history of the court proceedings it doesn't really suggest any such thing. More, it suggests that European legislation has encroached in a way that the travellers have used to try to prolong the situation.'

If you yourself are aware of the history of the court proceedings and whether European legislation (to which the UK is bound) has had any impact on them, then you are qualified to comment on what the judges have thought of the Dale Farm matter over the years, but if you are not au fait with the history of the cases and appeals, etc., then you are not qualified any more than I am to make any comment on the legal procedings here.

I don't think it's unreasonable to look at eight years of success in the courts and deduct from that that there were judges who sided with the Traveller arguments. There are two ways of seeing everything, but on this matter there is only one way that is based on the fact of eight years of having their arguments upheld.

Not to mention that if there was only one possible interpretation of the law there would be no need for judges in the first place, nor all the various levels of courts of appeal, and certainly no solicitors or barristers...

Yes, 'bing bang bong' just about sums it up.

How lovely that you may agree with me that it's ridiculous.

There is no point in talking about the court proceedings unless you have knowledge and understanding of their detail. I don't. I know that Human Rights legislation has played its part.

For someone who approves of this blatant disregard of the law to claim "there are judges who sided with the travellers" is completely contradictory. What do the travellers care what the judges think, or the law says? Why do you appeal to it at all? It's very unreasonable of you to talk about legal process at all, if you defend this disregard of it.

I'm so glad you agree, Math. It's rather hard not to when the skeleton facts are laid out in this way.

What disregard? They have pursued their case through the courts no less, for 10 years.

Reading back through the thread, they have been accused of pursuing their case through the courts for 10 years. They apparently can't win for losing here in this particular court of public opinion.

Recourse to the courts is the right of all citizens and it is perfectly legal to take your case as far as you can. That is why there are so many levels of courts, appeals courts, etc.

If its illegal how are home educators not all slung in prison?

Its not law that you have to send your child to school is it?

Or HE would be against the law and its not.

'There is no point in talking about the court proceedings unless you have knowledge and understanding of their detail. I don't.'

Good to know you will not be doing any more spouting on that subject then.

What disregard?

Today's disregard of course. They pursue the law when it goes their way; ignore the law when it doesn't.

"Good to know you will not be doing any more spouting on that subject then"

Tone, sweetie, tone. Let's keep it calm.

The illegality or otherwise is central to the issue : and you brought up claims of "woolliness" wrt to the law, when by your own admission you know as much about the ins and outs of eight years of legal action as I do.

MrsdV: home educators have to register with the local authority and they have visits to make sure they have the right curriculum materials and are giving the right level of instruction and so on and so forth. It's easy to google.

No, they are not accused of taking to the courts for ten years.

This is a defence against the accusation from travellers' supporters that Basildon council should let them stay because they've taken too long to move them on.

It's out of respect that it's take so long to move them on, and the travellers are now using that against the council.

marypole, yeah just like all brits are bear swilling louts

bear? beer

If any local authorities cared about children leaving education early they would see to it that the families had somewhere to stay that would facilitate school attendance, sites chosen for Travellers would not be in out of the way places near sewage treatment facilities or LA tips miles from buses or schools or even paved and lit roads, and they would not keep on evicting them.

Here's one limited and local study of what is involved in education of Roma, Romany and Traveller children and the difficulties they face.

Facile comments about 'badly brought up children' get everyone exactly where? (Being charitable here and assuming you have an interest in the greater good of all of course).

Agreed and some would say who gives a shit were they move they have had ten years to find somewhere

I took "badly brought up" from this:

mostly illiterate environment where a lot of verbal give and take between adults and children

Children who are brought up like this are either well brought up or badly brought up.

I think they are badly brought up: you disagree and must think they are well brought up? Can this be true?