Dale Farm et al

[AnneWiddecomesArse]

A continuation...

This is like a game of consequences

There are lots of travellers near where I live. I think they're travellers, they sound like Brad Pitt in Snatch. Or like that Paddy guy who has just been in Big Brother. A lot of them from down the road were in the first My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding programme.

Some of the kids are in DD's class at school and while they're polite to me and other adults I think they can be holy terrors towards other kids. DD has come home from school before saying that X and Y were saying that they'd been out breaking into places with their uncle the night before. I do believe it as they mentioned the premises broken into and the owner of that place had indeed had a break in that night.

I'm ten miles away from a place which I've seen referred to as the "travellers' capital of the UK" by national press. Not sure how true it is but there do seem to be a lot. I've never had any problems but I do know some people in the next village who say they've had stuff taken out their gardens by travellers - that they've actually seen them take stuff.

I have quite a bit to do with them through work and they're always very polite. But if they do think that you're not been respectful towards them they will kick off big time.

Just come back on to this thread and frankly I am shocked: Wholly Ghost - your last two posts directed at Perry are rude, patronising and a personal attack. There's really no need, this is a discussion isn't it?

Report them if you like Princess - but for whatever reason, she/he is claiming authority based on experience she/he patently doesn't have. I won't engage with him/her anymore, I am annoyed that I've wasted energy responding to a fraud.

WhollyGhost For what it is worth, I don't think you have been rude or patronising. You are simply pulling someone up on things they have posted that don't stack up.

whollyghost - I think that road traffic accidents are the leading cause of death in all young men along with suicide and (surprisingly) drowning. So not sure what to make of that statistic? The others you quoted are just shocking

I know that this discussion has moved on a bit from why the police don't always act as 'robustly' as desired but just wanted to say that from professional experience the police can be reluctant to confront people on their home turf because of high levels of gun ownership and aggressive dogs. I can understand why unarmed police officers do not want to risk their personal safety and calling out the Armed Response Unit to arrest someone for theft/criminal damage can seem like a massive over-reaction - as well as being very costly.

My personal experience of living in a small village in kent with quite a large settled population is that on the whole they were just like any of the other (poorer) people in the village. There were some violent crims who were in and out of prison who most people avoided.

Slightly irrelevantly, I read yesterday that Vanessa Redgrave is not involved in a private capacity but as a UN Special Envoy which is rather different IMO.

I never said that I was any authority.
I said I had experience of the traveller community in Ireland. Which I do.
I also questioned how many of the views on this thread had been experienced first hand and how many had been read or whispered or supposed.

I think I was also confused about Gypsy and Roma or Romani Gypsies and that might not have helped matters.

As many Travellers describe themselves as Gypsies that is why I was confused. I'm still unsure about the amount of exposure I've had to Romani Gypsies and no one on this thread has done anything other than sneer about how I'd know them if I'd met them or insinuated that as I am unsure it means that I don't know travellers.

Reading around the subject last night and this morning made me realise that there is masses that I know nothing about and I think that this thread has been really good for that.
I also thank AWA for sharing her experiences with a community and the police's response to her dreadful situation.

However I'm still really not that sure of the difference... except maybe in accent but there again with intermarriage I don't know that effect either. I'm not trying to denigrate another culture but I'm not sure I'd know.

I know that my having a differing viewpoint is irritating for wholly and that is why I am being treated in this manner.

maryz I think that you are right about calling the groups to act responsibly.

With regard the dale farm settlement I don't know what the answer is. If there aren't anywhere near enough sites and the govt isn't making provision I wonder what they thought would happen?
It doesn't excuse it but it goes some way toward explaining it.

I can't see how moving these people on will do anything except cost a huge amount of money and cause the same problem elsewhere. More importantly there are children who will be massively stressed and harmed by the eviction.

If this did one thing it should force the govt to say what it plans to do regarding GRT groups. Will it make the provision it has said is necessary? Will it allow private landlords pp to make the provision on their behalf? Will it say that it thinks that travelling people are better treated when static housed and provided with education healthcare and security of tenure.

I would like us to really think about what we thing of when we hear Gypsy, Traveller or Roma and then think, is it fair?

"With regard the dale farm settlement I don't know what the answer is."

I do.

If people break the law it must be enforced. People should not be permitted and encouraged to break the law.

For example, I am a bank robber. I have been doing it for 10 years. I knew it was illegal when I started doing it, and I knew it was illegal when I did it more and more. It has brought in a lot of good money so I have encouraged my brothers, sons, cousins and friends to join me. It has enabled our families to live in comfort, with nice homes, cars and clothes. If you were to try and stop me now, it would be an outrage. We've been doing it for ten years. You woul be taking out livelihood away. You would be throwing our families on the streets. Our wives are used to living in luixury so they have no skills and experience enabling them to get mainstream jobs. Our children would be starving and I would be unable to pay the Eton bills so they would be uneducated. Your inhumane cruelty to my family and cultural group would be an act of cruelty and spite, just because you are prejudiced against the business we have been in for generations.

Sorry Maryz didn't qualify that my knowledge is specifically of the UK and not Ireland. My main point was that this is how young people die - by accidents and violence rather than illness or disease.

Also, agree that suicide would be taboo and hidden if it did occur but maybe other violent deaths reflect greater risk-taking to the point of fatal self- harm/injury? Suicide statistics always difficult to interpret.

Perhaps, I'm incorrect on this too [!] but I imagine the murder rate would also be higher, from professional experience rather than predjudice. Tho' accounting for a much, much smaller number of fatalities.

Problem is Perry, that you made posts like this:

PerryCombover Mon 05-Sep-11 22:23:27
yeah I'm talking about travellers.
They speak a different language than Roma peoples..as I said earlier gypsy and roma/romany is different than traveller. Crucially though they are treated in the same manner as the Roma in Europe

We traded horses, competed against, travelled to Appleby with, worked and were among travellers for maybe 10 yrs. They were no better or worse than the rest of society. They were blamed on everything under the sun though

And this:

PerryCombover Mon 05-Sep-11 22:32:50
bubbles most traveller families don't behave at all as depicted in mbfgw
they were just as surprised as everyone else when they saw the programme.
It isn't that interesting a show showing people working hard to make a living and finding things tough and difficult

Which kind of comes across as you having fairly intimate knowledge.

Was Baby P from an ethnic minority? I didn't realise. Are you saying that the authorities are more reluctant to get involved in case they are accused of racism?

sarah that is right though

but as I don't speak their languages as I pointed out I don't know if a traveller tells me he's a gypsy is he is or not
Does he mean Gypsy ie Romani Gypsy or gypsy?

Do Romai gypsies sound in anyway Irish? Does intermarriage effect that? Do they all sound English? STILL asking the same Qs as last night still no answers just nit picking.

Do know that most traveller families live nothing like MBFGW. Do know that they were really unhappy with the portrayal.
Do know that travellers are blamed on anything when they are around.
Even within our yard tbh and we dealt with them for years. But it was 9/10 unfounded but proved our prejudice and we were working with them and trading to them.

It does feel as though some of you would rather attack me and what I've said than examine the information on the thread or read around the subject. I haven't lied. I've admitted that I have been unsure about Romani gypsies and for that I apologise but am still none the clearer.

pigletjohn I don't think we're talking about 'bank robbery' here.

.... but more minor crimes like burglary, TDA, stealing garden tools, horseboxes, red diesal, etc etc and as I said above there are good reasons why the police won't/can't enforce the law in the way you want.

This also extends to trying to section people on site when they are clearly severely mentally ill and a risk to themselves or others

A Gypsy is a Romany Gypsy. They do not sound Irish.

A traveller is what was called an Irish Tinker. They sound Irish.

Hate to disagree with you again Perry, but I have lived in the same village as travellers for a year, have friends who live right next to Dale Farm and also know 3 'settled' families. They live pretty much exactly as portrayed, except there are a hell of a lot more fights, and violence towards the women.

The 3 settled families I know are all Romany. They have integrated and they look down on the travellers as they cause them so much grief.

One of the pubs featured in MBFGW is not that far from me, and very close to where my DSis lives. Their weddings/functions are exactly as portrayed, if not worse.

They are a nightmare at the races, I've been in Epsom when they have had to shut pubs for miles around so that coachloads of travellers can't cause trouble. That's not from prejudice, that's from going on experience of what has happened in the past when a coachload has descended.

I never knew that Peter Connelly's mother was a traveller.
Where did you get this information?
What bearing does it have on this thread?

It was widely published in the newspapers at the time of the trial. It has bearing as it is yet another example of the bias shown towards travellers.

I hear what you say whollyghost. To add to what I said to maryz above - single driver traffic accidents eg driving into a tree, rolling a car whilst not wearing a seat belt are interpreted in different ways by the coroner [or other authority] depending on cultural/religious attitudes in a community.

Similiarly, 'accidents' with firearms and swimming/tombstoning when intoxicated with drugs or alcohol will not appear as suicides in any statistics.

Wholeheartedly agree with your observations about the contribution of neglect and dare I say physical abuse without being deleted [professional experience]

Lack of antenatal care and accessing healthcare must also play a part.

sarah
this is from Travellers Times..I just googled it so forgive me if it's off point

It's not as clear cut as you say. I'm sorry I don't agree with you, it just isn't a case of everyone from the Traveller community being bad. I'm sorry you have had bad experiences but I have had good experiences of travellers.

Again some travellers call themselves gypsies, therefore they have Irish accents
I have said I have been confused about it from the beginning. I have also said that I only have experience from Ireland and not GB