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Dale Farm et al

361 replies

AnneWiddecomesArse · 05/09/2011 22:51

A continuation...

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 15:20

Once again Manky, but without much hope of convincing you, when you start measuring the 'contribution' of a group to society according to your own standards of what constitutes a contribution, then you are guilty of racism.

mankyminks · 23/09/2011 15:40

Uuuuhm I don't think so,and just to be clear,I don't mean contribution in a financial way but as in 'your presence adds in a positive way to the community around you.' How is it racism to ask for some examples of positive things the Travelling Community has brought to the community around them?? I didn't say there were no examples,I said I couldn't think of any and was hoping someone would enlighten me.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 15:56

Oh no, I wasn't thinking of contribution in its financial aspect either, but thank you for clarifying.

The racism is now revealed far more clearly.

Traveller individuals, and the Traveller community exist and therefore 'contribute'. Nobody has to justify their presence anywhere.

ExitPursuedByaBear · 23/09/2011 16:19

In your opinion math. What about a negative contribution?

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 16:47

I think it is far from just my opinion. It is a generally accepted proposition.

mankyminks · 23/09/2011 16:54

There is absolutely no hint of sarcasm in my post I genuinely would like to know what the surrounding community would miss if the Travellers left Dale farm. I was hoping there was an element I simply didn't know about and would just really like to know. I never asked for anyone to justify their presence. Wasn't aware that was a general accepted proposition,but if you say so Math... . I think if I worked my way into the Houses of Parliament or even into your house I would need to justify my presence.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 17:03

You would, because those places are the property of other people just as Dale Farm is the property of the Travellers.

mankyminks · 23/09/2011 17:15

It's not about their presence though is it,it's about the buildings they have illegally build. They are going to be removed,not the people. They can stay as long as they like,but live on the legal site. I am sure they are free to wander around on the rest of the land they own.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 18:06

Fantastic example of hairsplitting.

So now it's not about their presence, and you are apparently no longer questioning their contribution to society, it's just their accommodation that you have a problem with. Are we back to 'visual impact' then?

mankyminks · 23/09/2011 18:10

Nope,legal issue is about the buildings. My question about people's contribution was a different one,trying to carefully suggest maybe there is a way for Travellers community and settled community to get to know each other so there would be more understanding about both ways of life. Willingness has to come from both sides though,else it's not going to work.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 18:19

LOLOLOLOL.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2011 18:26

So we really are back to the old 'visual impact' chestnut.

mankyminks · 23/09/2011 19:51

No we're not,back on the ILLEGAL chesnut

ExitPursuedByaBear · 23/09/2011 22:53

Interesting interview on the Today programme this morning with a chap from BT about the theft of copper from their network. Apparently BT are lobbbying the government to introduce legislation to put restrictions on the dealing of scrap metal, so that a paper trail could be in place for every transaction and that cash sales would no longer be an option. This would be an attempt to reduce the market in stolen metals. Of course, I am not for one moment accusing travellers of stealing anything, but someone has mentioned on one of these Dale Farm threads that travellers make their money from buying up old machinery, stripping it down and selling the scrap, so I was wondering how this suggested legislation would impact on their lifestyle choices?

mathanxiety · 24/09/2011 00:29

Oh now that is not one bit like trying to suggest Travellers are responsible for theft of copper..

Dillydaydreaming · 24/09/2011 07:32

math - there have been several thefts of railway stuff locally and Travellers ARE among those who have been charged.

Dillydaydreaming · 24/09/2011 07:37
  • AND for the zillionth time, I have NO problem with the legal part of the site. They are fine, they don't cause any problems (unlike some others of the non-traveller community) and everyone co-exists peacefully.
A large part of the illegal site do NOT live here peacefully though. That is why I want them gone!
cookcleanerchaufferetc · 24/09/2011 07:40

Exit - very interesting, I can see where BT are coming from.

Lots of lead and iron man hole covers being nicked from my area - several travellers got nicked themselves!

And again, who suffers? Law abiding people with increased council tax rates and BT bills .....

FellatioNelson · 24/09/2011 07:49

Well let's talk about the Travellers I rubbed shoulders with last week. This will be a story full of cliches and stereotypes, but that is their fault, not mine.

I am staying temporarily in a town I am not that familiar with. I came out of a restaurant (dubious theme pub/carvery affair, not haute cuisine) and next to my car were two vehicles, slung nonchalantly and hapharzardly, diagonally across two spaces each. The first was one of those big glitzy monster truck things, and the second was an old flat-bed lorry.

This lorry was piled up into a sky high tower with old scap metal in such a mind-blowingly dangerous and chaotic manner (and tied up with two bits of nylon rope Hmm - seriouly, two bits of thin rope!) that my 12 year old son and I just stood there with our mouths agape, amazed that the washing machine that was the cherry on this very tall cake had not yet fallen onto our car. We stood there for five mins staring at this sight, and pointing out to one another all the various dubiously stacked, heavy, jagged items that were not secured at all and could fly off into someone's windscreen at the first negotiation of a roundabout. It was like a sight from a cartoon.

So I phoned the police. I considered it to be an unsafe load. But being the type of person I am, I didn't phone 999 in case it wasted resources as it was only a potential accident waiting to happen. So I went to the trouble of finding the non-emergency number of the local station, which I knew to be about a 2 minute drive away, as I had just driven past it. They asked for the number plate and said they would send someone out. We waited, and we waited.....

Eventually the vehicle owners came out. Two Traveller couples with three pre-school aged children each. All the kids were put into the vehicles, babes on laps etc, without any car seats and off they lurched off happily around the roundabout with their mind-blowingly precarious cargo. And before anyone says 'how do you know they were Travellers?' I can identify them pretty easily thanks, in the same way I can identify most social/cultural groups - by the way they act/look/dress/speak.

We waited 10 more minutes - no police came.

The next day I was driving about a mile or two up the road from the carvery when what should I spot at the side of the road (parked most incongruously on a tiny greensward next to a war memorial, right on top of a set of busy traffic lights, completely blocking the visability around the corner for other motorists, which in ordinary circumstances would have had them reprimanded/moved by the police immediately) were two caravans, the same two vehicles I had seen, and a pile of old furniture and metal. I smiled and nodded to myself and drove on, thinking 'Ah well, at least they are travelling, trying to work, and they clearly won't stop there long as they can't even let the toddlers out of the trailer to run around.'

Three days later I drove by there again, and they were gone. But left in their place, artfully arranged around the war memorial, was a pile of old chairs, an old oil drum and various other bits of rubbish that clearly hadn't turned out to have enough scrap value for them to be bothered with. Nice. And yesterday it was all gone, so the council had obviously come out pretty sharpish to clear up after them.

ExitPursuedByaBear · 24/09/2011 11:17

Math - I specifically said I was not accusing travellers of stealing anything - I was merely wondering how any introduction of legislation and financial controls on scrapyards because of illegal goings on by other people would affect the travelling community who seem to do a lot of dealing with scrapyards.

mathanxiety · 25/09/2011 03:44

Yes, I know you weren't saying anything about Travellers. That is why I said --
'Oh now that is not one bit like trying to suggest Travellers are responsible for theft of copper..'
Smile

FN, very naughty -- you really shouldn't be caricaturing the police like that. Here's a review of a documentary about scrappers in the US city I lived in.

JLK2 · 25/09/2011 11:48

Just reading that the people protesting on behalf of the travellers are poshos whose parents have massive houses. Why can't they let the travellers set up camp on their own land, instead of expecting other people to put them up?

cookcleanerchaufferetc · 25/09/2011 16:30

I read on BBC news that local people are looking into withholding their council tax and applying for planning permission for illegal buildings, basically doing what the travellers are doing!

It can't be one rule for one and one rule for another!

msrisotto · 25/09/2011 16:57

Gosh, is it really racist to want to evict travellers who are illegally situated?

JLK2 · 25/09/2011 17:14

No of course it isn't. The council are the racist ones for applying the law differently to different groups of people.