Dale Farm et al

[AnneWiddecomesArse]

A continuation...

From Pavee Point paper wrt the UN Committee on Elimination of Racial Discrimination report on the issues facing Irish Travellers and Roma in Ireland:

'Pavee Point feels that issues facing Traveller women need to be reflected in mainstream strategies, such as the National Women?s Strategy and the National Strategy on Domestic, Sexual and Gender-based Violence 2010-2014.'

The exclusion of Travellers (Traveller women or Traveller men) from participation in forming approaches to dealing with this issue in the Traveller community is gobsmackingly short sighted (but sadly it reflects the traditional Irish reluctance to deal with the problem of DV in a wholehearted and comprehensive way). It is just one among many areas where Travellers are excluded from participation in policy formation.

Pavee Point is an Irish organisation of Travellers. It has a Roma committee also. The point of the claim to separate ethnicity is to gain a seat at the table and contribute to the conversations wrt policies that end up shaping Travellers' lives.

Galactosemia is an inherited metabolic disorder. It is a major problem in Irish Traveller communities but it is not routinely screened for in Ireland. The US screens all newborns for galactosemia.
'The only treatment for classic galactosemia is eliminating lactose and galactose from the diet. Even with an early diagnosis and a restricted diet, however, some individuals with galactosemia experience long-term complications such as speech difficulties, learning disabilities, neurological impairment (e.g. tremors, etc)... Infants with classic galactosemia cannot be breast-fed due to lactose in human breast milk and are usually fed a soy-based formula.' ... 'Long term complications of galactosemia include:
Speech deficits
Ataxia
Dysmetria
Diminished bone density
Premature ovarian failure
Cataract'
(from Wikipedia on galactosemia)

Interesting note a few months ago on a MBFGW thread there was a bit of tut-tutting of the fact that the Traveller babies were mostly being fed formula, which was taken to mean that the women had been oppressed into such an unnatural habit or that they were ignorant a case of middle class assumptions proving unfounded and way off the mark.

Many other factors contribute to a higher death rate among Travellers. Suicide rates are higher than the mainstream population. Car and road deaths account for most deaths of males. Untreated chronic conditions such as asthma leave their mark.

Much of what British LAs experience by way of Traveller attitudes is there because of Traveller experiences in Ireland. Ireland is effectively exporting a problem of its own making to Britain, and since welfare in Ireland is severely restricted to people who have had a habitual residence in Britain, many Travellers who have spent significant stretches of time in Britain (and other low income Irish people who have patchy employment in Britain interspersed with periods of unemployment spent living in Ireland with family) are effectively forced to stay in Britain or risk utter destitution at home.

I am shocked at the personal experiences - who wouldn't be? They are truly awful. I can honestly say that if I had had this sort of experience living next to a Traveller community then I would just want them gone. But as it goes I have no experience of them, at all, good or bad.

The point is from an outsider's perspective moving them on just does not seem to be the answer - or at least not the whole answer. History proves this. We have spent 10 years and £18 million and it is not resolved. What will happen? They will go somewhere else and do it all over again and again and again... unless we address the problem in a different way. Like it or not we have to try and understand them, their culture, the way they choose to live and to come up with a mediated solution to the problem of accommodating this within our society while trying to get them to modify their behaviour.

This behaviour can be appalling, yes. But prejudice against them exists, perhaps with good reason? Whatever the truth the fact is they fuel each other and the situation is now untenable.

IMO it's no good just saying 'they've broken the law now get them OUT' without following that through. We will end up wasting more and more of taxpayers money and it will never end. The idea of smaller sites, brownfield sites, clamping down hard on any antisocial behaviour seems a good one, but we have to compromise, involve them in the process to make it work. I am no expert but there are people out there who are, who can negotiate, mediate and at least try and sort out a solution with them. Where is the harm in trying a different tack, cutting them some slack no matter whether they deserve it, being the grown up and actually attempting to sort out an answer once and for all? I have no sympathy with them, personally, especially after reading some of the posts here and I know a lot of you will read this as liberal flim flam, but actually what else is there to do? Really? Serious question. It has to end somehow.

Just an idea, up for discussion.(puts fingers in ears and waits for explosion).

Math, the incidence of galactosaemia in the traveller population is only 0.2%.

That is indeed "relatively common" but it is not actually common. It does not explain the above figures on child mortality.

Just to reiterate - nobody has said on here that all travellers are bad (if they have their posts were deleted before I saw them). But there are aspects of their culture that are problematic, both for members of that community and the people who interact with them. The statistics reflect that.

PrincessTamTam - I think those approaches have been tried and tried, and what has been achieved is making some members of the traveller community even more aware of their rights and their identity as a minority group. "cutting them some slack no matter whether they deserve it" has resulted in child abuse and DV being tolerated as well as anti social behaviour as seen at Dale farm.

The harsh reality is that all this doesn't have to end somehow, there is every chance it will continue to fester, with the problems at Dale farm passed on to someone else. But with no more special treatment, no more accomodating of their patriarchal cultural practices, no more facilitating them living in large groups - I think they would of necessity have more exposure to non-travellers. More integration would, I hope, mean less anti-social behaviour, less seeing of settled people as "other". And eventually a wider gene pool

Those who wish to travel would of course be free to do so, just like anybody else. You and I see the same problem, and come to opposite conclusions. And I do think that is because I am cynical due to personal experiences. I despair thinking that the lovely, emaciated little girls I used to know will have had a wretched time of it since, if they're still alive. And I was too scared to really help them.

WhollyGhost
Yes, I think integration is ultimately the answer too. And yes they must compromise too. But if we just rail against them and attempt to force a resolution on them without serious consultation we will surely fail. It may have been tried before but perhaps not in the right way and using the right resources? Whatever we have done we must learn from and try again, and again, for those poor emaciated little girls you tried to help, as much as for ourselves. Having said that I feel exhausted just typing it.

Deaths worldwide among children of first cousins from all causes are estimated to be 4-5% higher than children of unrelated couples. Within any small endogamous population, cousin marriage is very likely to occur.

Traveller babies are 3x more likely to be stillborn in Ireland.

Travellers are far more likely than non-Travellers to carry the Q188R mutation that is the predominant cause of galactosemia in the Traveller community.
From www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10439960 'Anonymous population screening has shown the Q188R carrier frequency to be 0.092 or 1 in 11 among the Travellers as compared with 0.009 or 1 in 107 among the non-Travellers.' The side effects apart from death in early infancy are very serious, result in diminished capacity to be educated or employed, increased propensity to be involved in accidents due to gross motor deficiencies, and go on to adversely affect Travellers throughout their lives.

Travellers are also more likely than non-Travellers to carry:
(1) Hurler syndrome - Scroll down for 'Features' -- "Children with Hurler syndrome often die before age 10 from obstructive airway disease, respiratory infections, or cardiac complications."
(2) Fanconi's Anaemia - "the majority of FA patients develop cancer, most often acute myelogenous leukemia, and 90% develop bone marrow failure (the inability to produce blood cells) by age 40. About 60-75% of FA patients have congenital defects, commonly short stature, abnormalities of the skin, arms, head, eyes, kidneys, and ears, and developmental disabilities. Around 75% of FA patients have some form of endocrine problem, with varying degrees of severity. Median age of death was 30 years in 2000."
(3) Type II/III Osteogenesis Imperfecta -
In Type II, "Collagen is not of a sufficient quality or quantity. Most cases die within the first year of life due to respiratory failure or intracerebral hemorrhage. [Other symptoms are] Severe respiratory problems due to underdeveloped lungs [and] Severe bone deformity and small stature."
In Type III, "Collagen [is] improperly formed. Enough collagen is made but it is defective.
[Symptoms are]:
Bones fracture easily, sometimes even before birth.
Bone deformity, often severe.
Respiratory problems possible.
Short stature, spinal curvature and sometimes barrel-shaped rib cage.
Triangular face.
Loose joints.
Poor muscle tone in arms and legs.
Discolouration of the sclera (the 'whites' of the eyes), often turning blue during severe break.
Early loss of hearing possible
Type III is distinguished among the other classifications of OI as being the "Progressive Deforming" type, wherein a neonate presents with mild symptoms at birth and develops the aforementioned symptoms throughout life. Lifespan may be normal, albeit with severe physical handicapping."

So life expectancy is affected by the genetic diseases Travellers are most susceptible to, and quality of life too.

There are definitely aspects of their culture that are problematic for non-Travellers, and when it comes to shooting yourself in the foot, Travellers seem to excel.

But PrincessTamTam's question is really the only valid one to arise from this thread and its predecessor. "Where is the harm in trying a different tack, cutting them some slack no matter whether they deserve it, being the grown up and actually attempting to sort out an answer once and for all?" - as opposed to spending £18 m to evict them now and potentially even more in order to keep them moving on.

So, math, when it comes to cutting them some slack, by way of compromise, which kinds of laws would you make not apply to travellers?

Those on domestic violence?
or maybe the ones relating to child abuse/neglect?
or the ones relating to land use?
perhaps those on anti social, or even criminal behaviour?

Because this is the unpalatable reality of "cutting them some slack" And it would effectively discriminate against those who are being subjected to abuse.

I always enjoy your posts, but on this issue you've long ago made up your mind, and are grasping at straws to support your viewpoint, rather than being open to others. AFAIK, all the genetic conditions you mention, are still rare in the traveller community, though clearly far more common than elsewhere. They don't explain the statistics on childhood mortality. I wish they did.

Thinking about it - the implicit attitude that many media commentators, and some posters here have, that we should expect a lower standard of behaviour from some ethnic groups is rather patronising.

Sorry math, but I started skimming past your posts in the last thread. All you seem to do is regurgitate C&P statistics or articles and bleat that the world should bend the rules for them.

Life's not like that. You can't have laws that only apply to some people. That's bigotry/racism/prejudice. The very thing that you are railing against. It is perfectly possible to retain one's culture and fit in with the rest of society, plenty of minorities have shown how that can be achieved. Travellers do not want to integrate. And why should they, when the rest of us have to turn a blind eye and bend over backwards to accommodate them.

WG, Where have I ever said slack should be cut? What I would like to see is the even and fair application of planning laws.
Look back through my posts and check out what I said about DV in Traveller society. It is the central issue and nothing else will be accomplished in terms of integration or even improvements in their situation as things stand (semi nomadic etc) until the make culture behind it is successfully challenged.

Are you saying that Traveller children die in droves before their second birthdays from abuse or neglect? How easy it is to believe the worst of people when you have closed your mind to the possibility that they are human beings.

I don't actually care whether you deem my posts relevant, SarahStratton. Your best idea here seems to be move them on and spend £18m in the process. And again with 'The Law blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..........'

Look at what is happening at Dale Farm and what will happen at some time in the future it is guaranteed to happen again and ask yourself if your willful refusal to deny reality is going to leave you the taxpayer better or worse off. Because that is how life is. You deal with reality or you live in your own Little British LaLaLand.

Re Mediation/Arbitration at Dale Farm - the stakes are now very high for the residents, the local authority and government who have all taken up untrenched positions. And whilst compromise on any side seems unlikely there are skilled mediators already working with the residents and LA and the eviction has already been post-poned from 31st August for 3 weeks, without massive 'loss of face'.

Even the most intractable industrial disputes have been resolved thro' arbitration.

Perhaps, the residents could stay longer and move on more gradually in a planned way eg when children leave school, more legal sites become available rather than via en masse eviction.

I'm not neccessarily in favour of Michael Gove/Steve Hilton's plans to make receiving Child Benefit contingent on sending the children to school. Fines and empty threats of imprisonment just don't work for the most dis-engaged parents. As far as I understand it, this is not directed at the parents of children who are legitimately absent due to ill health - or take short holidays in term time But rather at the parents of the children who are habitually absent without good reason. This could possibly be one way of improving access to education with all the attendent advantages already explored on this thread. And also prevent teenage girls prematurely leaving school. Mothers and children could also receive health and social care at school

I think that the wealth of travellers is over-estimated particularly since the recession which has impacted on the ways in which they have traditionally earned a living.

In one of the links on this thread it said that 90% of travellers are now settled - travelling is disappearing as a way of life which needs to be accepted by all parties.

I thought that the Local Authority's planning rejection had been upheld by the High Court?

The judiciary in this country is separate from politics and entrenched opinion, surely.

Reality? The only reference point you have is what you read and what you experienced back in Ireland. To which, it has already been pointed out, there is not much relevance as the illegal site is totally different to what you saw.

The reality is that it is illegal. That you can't have laws that apply only to some. And that the travellers are the making of their own problems. Until they are ready to be more open, more reasonable towards others, and more of an integral part of society over here, there is no option of change.

Yes, it is a huge problem that needs solving. But that has to be a 2 way thing.

Yes, of course the LAs planning rejection has been upheld by the High Court - thats why this crisis has arisen?

The judiciary should indeed be separate from politics and government so it's not right or helpful for David Cameron to be vocal about supporting the eviction IMO. Earlier in this thread there was despair expressed about the travellers reluctance to compromise hence my comments about entrenched opinions.

I heard an elderly female traveller on the TV saying that if/when they move on it will be only ''10 miles up the road'' which doesn't seem satisfactory to me - or most likely to the people living locally.

There's that word again. The concept that works one way.

'To which, it has already been pointed out, there is not much relevance as the illegal site is totally different to what you saw.'
Is that so?

I am comparing apples and oranges? (Because somehow Irish Travellers are completely different when they are in Britain?)

I have never seen an illegal site of this sort before? (Because there is something intrinsically different about an illegal site in Britain and one in Ireland?)

Are you saying that only someone who has stood within 5 miles (or whatever) of Dale Farm can possibly expect to have any appreciation of the situation?

In other words, if I don't agree with you my thoughts are irrelevant?

Mathanxiety - to answer your question, see the last lines of your own post of 18:48:11

10% of travellers die before their 2nd birthday, that really is children dieing in droves. The 2007 report estimated that about 25% of those deaths might be explained by the inbreeding.

"Yes, it is a huge problem that needs solving. But that has to be a 2 way thing."
And that is what arbitration is all about. Thanks to fargate for that post - I sincerely hope it works in this situation and past mistakes are not repeated.

The problem in planning law ISTM is that it is open to interpretation, and that it has to be fair - to all sides. I assume this is why its been dragged out for ten years. There are clearly issues with the legal process that need addressing once the immediate problem has been dealt with one way or another. IMO the whole point is not to let this happen again that's what we all want isn't it?

Did you read the independent article linked above by Teachermumof3? It tells you a lot about "the millionaires", these travellers from Rathkeale, who are running the camp at Dale farm, they are likely to be very different from the travellers you knew.

So are you saying something there, WG, or are you hinting darkly?

Math, have you read the article Teachermum linked? Have you been to Dale Farm? Look at the ariel photograph of the 'before' site. One of those bungalows belongs to friends of ours, an old schoolfriend. I have been to her house many, many times. Their garden backs onto the original site.

Their lives have been made hell by the site. They cannot sell their house, they cannot rent it out. They can't even remortgage it, no lender will touch it. And they won't even have friends round as they have previously been abused and had stuff thrown at their cars. Their daughter lives with friends in a nearby village as they are not happy with her being there and potentially being in the house on their own. They have had to move their horses into a livery yard and are paying for that, too now.

That is what life near Dale Farm is like.

And I might be 'blah blah blah about the law, but the law is there for a reason. To protect others. And fuck knows, the locals need protecting.

teachermums link is fascinating tho' the article is dated June 2004. And much has changed with respect to the Irish economy in the last 7 years which will have had a considerale effect on the business dealings of the traveller community in Rathkeale.

I know we are all very reasonable people but...I sometimes wonder if we will look back at how these communities were treated and wonder how we could have possibly been so lacking in empathy and understanding.

Some of you have had terrible, terrible experiences and as such it is almost impossible to try to see things from the other side. It's completely understandable and bloody awful. I cannot imagine having to live through some of the things you have described.

I also think the travellers, in their majority, have it really bad too.

Math - the Rathkeale connection has been long discussed. They really do seem to be the same people

I wish MNHQ would say on what grounds they are deleting posts