Watch David Starkey on Newsnight now

[forehead]

What a bigot

"There is at this present moment at least a hundred thousand poor, miserable, ragged rabble, from twelve to sixty years of age, with blue cockades in their hats - besides half as many women and children - all parading the streets - the bridge - the park - ready for any and every mischief. - Gracious God! what's the matter now? I was obliged to leave off - the shouts of the mob - the horrid clashing of swords - and the clutter of a multitude in swiftest motion - drew me to the door - when every one in the street was employed in shutting up shop. "

Ignatius Sancho describing the Gordon Riots in 1780.

Still think it's a modern phenomenon?

There was no welfare state in 1780. No blackberries and trainers and dole money.

And that idiot Starkey, along with some of the others on this thread might want to take note:

Sancho was black, along with a significant proportion of the rioters. 3 of the people hanged for disorder were black. The instigator of the riot; a wealthy white man, was found not guilty and freed without further charge.

In the past week I've seen plenty of black people criticising 'gangsta' culture - they're hailed as hero's almost - but if a White person says anything they're a racist bigot -
I have a Muslim friend on Facebook and his status yesterday was; -

'I wonder what the reaction would have been if David Starkey had been black? - you'd be calling him a visionary - just like when I criticise elements of Islam I'm a positive voice - but when a white bloke says the same thing it's Islamophobia'

Black does not equal gangsta, gangsta equals gangsta. The colour of the rioters, as seemingly all, matters not. Ghettoisation of sections of society is to blame, put anyone into the pressure cooker of low expectation, no money, no beauty in their surroundings and it would happen to anyone.....white, black, Asian whatever. Culture cannot be defined by colour but behaviour. David Starkey is dangerous, as he sounded reasonable and therefore a peg for a racist to hang his own ideals.

The problem of black youths being searched and also more likely to commit crime is not coincidental(I'm not even sure which came first)....it needs sorting out, but not with demonisation but with understanding.

We all need a tribe, we all need to belong, so let's welcome people back into society so that they don't feel that they have to find belonging in criminality and gang culture.

Posie - they was a former gang member on the telly yesterday blaming the breakdown of the family on the problems - a lot of politicians will simply not accept that as a reason - even when the very people affected are telling them.

Farking ell

I grew up in London. Alot of black people live in London. Ergo when riots break out in London, alot of rioters will be black

Also race is a factor - there is suspicion of the police which is understandable following the Brixton riots (sus laws) and the cover - up over Sptehen Lawrence - there is that element.

I think it is a cultural thing but it stretches across races: I see white kids just as likely to adopt 'gangsta, style as black kids. I think the black population in London faces a tougher struggle than the white though judging by some of the ignorant posts on this thread.

Gang culture is alive and well in Scotland and they are on the whole white. Albanian gangs trafficking women are white.

FFS

posieparker have you ever lived on a council estate run by a teenage gang

Some feminists would argue that family breakdown, or rather lack of fathers, has no bearing on children...I think they're wrong. I just spent a week with a women who works with youths that have been wholly failed by society, she says nearly all have absent fathers.

Posieparker

If your personal experience bears that out then it has to have some truth in it.

But politicians wont allow a silly thing like facts to get in the way of their policies.

The question is how should we help more families have Father involvement reversing the trend that has caused a social problem?

Posie - they was a former gang member on the telly yesterday blaming the breakdown of the family on the problems - a lot of politicians will simply not accept that as a reason - even when the very people affected are telling them.

also community workers saying this too

the only people who aren't afraid to articulate it - the people with direct experience

Getting reluctant and over-fecund fathers more involved is going to take a long time, be very expensive and and not be very successful. You have to be a realist. Better not to incentivise the pregnancy in the first place.

But some men don't deserve to be anywhere near their children do they? How does that happen? Cycles of shit Dads? Father beats son, Father beats wife, son beats wife, son beats son?

And then there are those that just walk away unscathed from a family, noone even cares that they abandoned their wife and kids.

Some Women don't deserve to be near their children also.

Isn't it time the courts did something about that?

Completely agree Organic. All too often men are paid more than women and so end up being the full time worker and take on less repsonsibility of the childcare and so it's a no brainer when they divorce that women get the children. Plus men tend to move out of the family home, it's a given that women will get the children. It's a cycle basically, but one that men have made for themselves, in the main.

Just watched it on catch up. He was saying imo that the culture of 'gangsta' has become part of a lot of young lives in the UK black white or asian. There is no doubt that it is a black sub culture and I think many young black people would be appalled if the media reported it as anything other than that as it is the one representation of them that they do see in the media. Gangs are like families for some people and the whole image of the flash cars jewellery and women etc has fuelled a whole section of society to feel they need these things to be cool but see no way of getting them legally as they have no jobs. I think DS is old school racist he really can't see anything wrong in what he says but is basically seeing a load of young black kids portrayed in a certain way and thinking that is all they do. The lack of good black role models in the ,edia is a problem so the young people relate to what they see on tv which in many cases is gangster stereotypes

Sorry my black son is fine a has a role model his dad he hates baggy jeans and we don't allow him to watch those Kerry katona,jorden, only way is Essex type programmes so many allow their children to watch

Sweet sixteen, big brother get rich quick and famous for nothing programmes are not from black culture

This patios that staley talks about is bullshit if these kids were taken to the Caribbean the people their would not have a clue what they are saying

Anybody who has ever been to the Caribbean will have noticed that people do not say

"whatever minger" or "ya get me" or "chav"

This is a made of language from white, asian and black youths

My dad is from the the Caribbean and is always moaning he can never understand what these kids are saying

And any one who is actually from or married to someone from the Caribbean woud know that sort of loose language would never be tolerated with in the schools they still have copral punishment and you would get a slap if you ever said "init" then when you went home your parents would slap you for getting slapped at school

I am only referring to DS and his referencing the whole gangsta sub culture that has come from the US. My son also has his dad as a role model but many don't The difference is my ds sees a multitude of positive representations of his colour day in day out on tv etc whereas there is an over kill of negative black stereotypes that some who don't have a positive role model will aspire tp

It seems impossible to make any general observation without someone saying that it simply can't be true because their own situation is not like that.

It's good to have people's personal experience but this incapability of seeing that other people's lives might differ from your own is sometimes extraordinary.

Maypole why has the behaviour over here become so bad in contrast to the Caribbean. My dad grew up on the Pembury estate in the 50's and went to a good school. This was burned down in the 1980's.

I remember visiting my grandparents in the 70s/80s and it seemed bleak.

Because it jamaica you don't have liberal attitudes If your child is bad they are punished, and I also think over their they don't have benefits so they can buy their kids blackberries so they can organise a riot.

We have become loose as nation

Completely agree Maypole1.

I think maypole1 is right. I remember seeing a TV programme where Caribbean parents were sending their children back to the Caribbean to be educated because it was a traditional education with discipline and rigour etc.

But, of course, there are lots of problems with crime and yardies etc. at a later age in the Caribbean as well as here.

When I was at school 20 years ago, it was taken for granted that many of the kids of African/West Indian extraction were subject for far more rigid discipline than their white peers.

I remeber Nei and Adeyinka's mum was legend for standing over them while they completed their homework straight after school.

This is about British culture, these rioting youths have grown up with British values.

David Starkey was absolutely right in what he said - he blamed the gangsta culture - which happens to be a black culture which white kids like to emulate and join. His biggest criticism was the attitude of this culture to education --- ie they mock and dismiss it.

There have been many discussions on womens hour about the acceptance by teenage girls of violent and controlling boyfriends, also emulating this gangsta culture.

There have been many criticisms of the sexy, blatant behaviour of female singers/dancers on MTV and the violent dismissive behaviour of their blokes - this also kowtows to the gangsta culture.

I'm not that brainy but it was obvious to me what David Starkey was saying and it wasn't racist. Sadly all the dogooder lefties just can't wait to jump on the racist bandwagon instead of discussing the real problem.

This is David Starkey's response to criticism of his comments on Newnight in yesterday's Telegraph.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8711621/UK-riots-Its-not-about-criminality-and-cuts-its-about-culture...-and-this-is-only-the-beginning.html

(love his description of Piers Morgan near the end)