Watch David Starkey on Newsnight now

[forehead]

What a bigot

social policy Tabitha the way housing works, there has been some efforts to demolish ghetto like big estates and spread out a bit more and mix it up but is hard to do, there are some interesting studies on it, look at the Rowntree Foundation here

I wasn't particularly thinking about housing estates. Most people around here have bought their own properties. Hmm. I do find it interesting though, how it's all happened.

In the case of nationalities (ie not colour) you go to where your nationality lives, you just do, for shops selling the "right kind" of bread, to company, to language, to shared homesickness, shared sport and stuff. I don't know about colour but I'd think it's more cultural than colour - so basically the same reasons nationalities stick together.

I only know that from living abroad.

One thing that really irritates me is when white kids try to speak with an Afro carribean accent. Has anyone else noticed this.

It doesn't matter so long as they're not doing anything wrong.

alemci - what is an "afro carribean accent" do all black people you know sound the same? Do the older generation speak in the same way? Would it annoy you if you saw a Chinese person speaking with a Scottish accent?
Just wondering...

It's annoying because I/We don't understand them.

It seems that nobody does.

Maybe that's the problem.

Blueberties I think that the expat experience can be a little different, mostly you will have people from the same sort of socio economic background banding together and often it is for a limited amount of time.
From what I have seen/experienced in London most immigrants do tend to gather around specific area but most long term residents move away, particularly as their economic situation improves.

one thing also is that, it seems difficult for people coming from abroad to feel anything other than tolerated guests, at least sometimes, it seems different from the idea say from the US where you are sort of meant to become an American, well at least in theory. difficult territory that, but it is not like cultures haven't mixed before

But it's not an Afro-carribean accent. Africans of which there are many accents do not speak like this and I am sure they would sound out of place Barbados. So it ends up as a generalisation same as DS

alemci, there are over 30 countries in the Carribean, English, French, Spanish, Portugese, Papiamento speaking and others, do you really think this produces one Afro-Carribean accent?

Has this turned into an ebonics lesson?

I know what alemci means.

That apart I don't care what dialect people speak it's how people act that annoys me.

Ebonics refers to African-American English, not sure anyone was talking about that at all.

Thanks organic. I am sure the other posters do too. I was trying not to be offensive but it sounds like a 'gangsta' sort of accent so make of that what you will. Whatever it is, it just makes white kids sound idiotic IMO and I am sure it is exgaggerated.

Do you remember when some of the kids adopted a 'neighbours' type accent a while back and sounded like they were asking a question

Semantics is what we're talking about.

And the English version of the Speak/language formed by either music or culture.

Most people knew what almeci meant by the post and it's a valid point even if you may not agree with it.

Maybe we're just getting old almeci :)

I think I am becomming Victor Meldrew LOL.

I think it is also because I have worked with some difficult teenagers and it could be challenging

You miss the point. I know what Alemci is trying to say, but it is a 'London accent'. But it appears normal for a black person to speak this way, just as it seems abnormal for David Lammy to speak in a 'proper way'.

No I'm sure it rings true for all communities and immigrants. I don't think "white" expats are different. My area had a lot of South Africans and Nigerians a while back: now it seems to be becoming rather French. There's also quite a large Muslim community because of the mosque. If services and "compatriots" are there, it draws you. You'll have contacts, you will have heard place names and street names. You go where you can afford and where you can make contacts. It's very natural. People will then move on because they establish themselves and don't feel the need or the comfort of familiarity, but always new people will head to the same place. Twas ever thus.

I used to live in Tottenham, couple streets along from the carpet shop that went up. It's a commonly held "myth" that Tottenham is predominately Black. I lived in Northumberland Park Ward. There and in the other wards surrounding the area where the rioting occurred (i.e. Bruce Grove, Tottenham Hale and Tottenham Green), the largest ethnic group is White British and Irish. African and African Carribbean people make up 37.9% of the population in Northumberland Park sloping down to 32.9% in Tottenham Green (where Seven Sisters Tube and the Leisure Centre are.) In those 4 wards, the remainder are mixed heritage (about 5%), Asian (between 6 and 8%) and Chinese and "other" (between 3 and 5 %) This comes from Haringey Council's website here:

The further you get out from this "core" area, you find the proportion of white people increases and Black African/African Caribbean decreases. For example, nearby White Hart Lane ward is 59.7% white and only 26% African/African Caribbean.

Okay, these figures come from the 2001 Census and the picture may have changed since then. However, since that time, a higher proportion of inward migration to the area has been from other parts of Europe - Poland, Czech Republic, etc. So, if anything, I would expect the proportion of ethnically white people to have increased.

I think for people who are used to living and working in areas that most definitely are predominately white - as in like 90% white, perhaps they are more likely to notice if there are more non-white people around and perceive that the community is "predominately Black" when in fact, it is far from that.

Sorry if that's a bit of a tangent.

I think young people in general always develop and use their own words and dialect. Some of the terms enter our mainstream language and some don't. I don't think it's anything to get the panties in a bunch over.

Oh, and Starkey is an absolute tool!

Whoops - Haringey Council website here www.haringey.gov.uk/index/news_and_events/fact_file/wardprofiles.htm

Alemci, I think I know what you are trying to say.

It does have ties around the gansta culture that many young people look up to.

It's often used by acts like Snoop dog, who use such anyway of speaking in his music. Often his lyrics are about shooting people, drive bys, using women as prostitutes, and gang land behaviour.

You can dress it up all you like in saying it's about expression and freedom. But to me it's about a group of people thinking that such behaviour is not only acceptable but is honourable.

Yes wide and also I think it may hinder job prospects if people don't sound articulate. I am not suggesting they should speak with a BBC accent as I certainly don't.

He was probably referring to black criminal gang culture. However, to refer to this as 'black culture' would be the same as referring to the modern day Kray twins equivalent as a pan 'white culture'. He seemed to select a part to describe the whole in an unfair/incorrect and derogatory way. He used black and criminal as synomyms. If you take the Kray twin example, you would use white and criminal as synomyms too.

He did seem to take delight in the opportunity to hammer this partial view home.

I do think criminal gangs of all origins needs to be clamped down on.

synonym