Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

The PM has just stated that young people feel the world owes them something. We do owe them something, education (no EMA so more school post 16)
massive tuition fees, no jobs, youth services slashed etc. I hear people cry what about the parents, it's too late Thankyou to all the kids doing the the massive clear up-there are some lovely people in England

Cogito, all I think is that some thought has to be put into how these people are punished. We're all very angry and frightened at the moment, and need to be wary of knee-jerk reactions, which often have very serious consequences.

I suppose it depends on whether you think doling out harsh, exemplary punishments will deter others from going on the rampage. They might make the rest of us feel better in the short term, but they could create even worse consequences in the long run.

From BBC News, the first person to be charged (doesn't say what with, but she was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon) is a 31 year old teacher (ergo degree educated) called Alexis Bailey.

It will be interesting to see what her 'excuse' is.

I have been wondering this too.

Cardiff is only a small city, but it has twice the poulation of Gloucester which has been hit by rioting. It does have a strong black community, and has done for a very long time. So that disproves the theory that it is happening where there are large black communities.

On Twitter I have seen a lot of people saying that they are proud that Wales is not "stooping to the levels of England" by rioting - maybe they don't want to be seen to be copying the English? Maybe people from ethnic minorities living in Wales or Scotland have a stronger sense of being Welsh or Scottish than those living in England have about being English? I don't know.

I have also heard a lot of comment on the fact that both Wales and Scotland have socialist governments/assemblies, they certainly have better provision for access to higher education etc for everyone. Maybe people in Wales and Scotland feel less disengaged?

I live in an area where there is a lot of poverty. We were eligible for EU Objective 1 funding (for areas where GDP was less than 75% of the European average). But it is rural poverty, which is very different to urban poverty. And I don't think that poverty per se is a cause of the rioting.

Well, Aitch has said most of what I was planning to say before my battery went flat.

We do have real poverty here, and plenty of "neds", but I think there is a greater sense of community. Perhaps it starts from having defined catchment areas for schools. I "know" all the teenagers here because they went to school with my children. I would definitely step in and do/say something if I saw them doing something illegal because I know that others would back me up. I am constantly suprised by threads that pop up here from time to time where posters ask if they should report something / knock on the door of a neighbour who hasn't been seen for ages etc etc. I think there's less of a "turning a blind eye" culture here. This is obviously a massive generalisation, but from living in several places in England and Scotland, it's definitely my experience.

Another factor could be that the disaffected youths are less mobile. There's an issue in Glasgow with postcode gangs (I'll try and find the article later), where they literally don't venture out of their immediate area. I worked in a deprived area of the city that was a 20 minute walk from the centre, and some adults had never been (other than school trips to Kelvingrove). Some of the schemes are further out, and quite self-contained. If that's all you've known, you'd feel safe there.

I think the weather and drugs also play a part. It's so wet here just now that I wouldn't leave the house for a free ipad and a date with George Clooney (well, I might...).

Solopower you talk so much sense pity there are not more of you.

As for omments about the racial make up in Scotland; you people are aware that Glasgow, one of the poorest cities in the UK has a massive Asian population, right? And that Edinburgh is something of a multicultural melting pot?

"how can you cease to believe in law and order, a moral universe, co-operation, the purpose of existence, and yet still believe in sportswear? "

LOL!

there have been no riots, as far as I know, in the south west other than Bristol, in Sheffield, Coventry, Newcastle, Leeds, Nottingham or in Cardiff. So there are parts of England, and even urban England, not (yet?) involved. I believe there are a lot of non-white people in Cardiff and Nottingham, probably Plymouth and Leeds. So the search for explanations needs to go beyond black and white and beyond deprivation.

Certainly my childrens' school is hot on rights but seems to ignore responsibilities. Fortunately the parents don't.

"As for comments about the racial make up in Scotland; you people are aware that Glasgow, one of the poorest cities in the UK has a massive Asian population, right?

It wasn't the Asian population I was thinking of...

Sorry, there has been quite bad trouble in nottm and I think some problems in Leeds.

Yes, Sprogger, it's the 'nothing to lose' mentality that is so scary.

Totally agree ellisbell. Some people are very keen to stoke up racial dissent, aren't they?

Bet the EDL/BNP are loving all this (and are probably right in the thick of it too).

flippinada I wonder if this is the same teacher?

Do the same extremes of deprivation and excessive wealth existing side by side occur in Scotland or Wales? Could that be something to do with it?

And much as I love Scotland it does seem to rain a lot! A good night of rainfall in London would get everyone off the streets.

Could somebody tell me how to post a link please, nobody is going to read the article i found unless i do a proper link are they?

My colleague's just said that the other night, there was a girl and her friends who were on his road throwing bricks at cars, and being quite gobby.

Last night, he opened his window and heard her voice again. Went out for a walkabout to see what's going on - she lives in the building. London is a very mobile city - people tend to move around a lot so you don't get communities like those described above. I recognise about three of my neighbours, and have spoken to one in the time I've lived in the building.

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court John Brain tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

Teachers pay 24k yeah shes really a deprived youth, I even saw a lady in a curries uniform being arrested for looting her own shop

Those wooly leftys are the reason we are hear always wanting to give these people their handouts now they feel the word owe them a living
The sate pays for tier homes, their food ,their many siblings , parents to sit at home s why shouldn't they have anything else they want

I am still not convinced though that these are only disaffected youths who have nothing to lose. My parents' generation went to school and lived with people who did not have shoes to put on their feet or food to put on their table and yet they did not go vandalising/mobbing/rioting.

So far it has been reported that there are college and university graduates, a teacher, a graphic designer, a youth worker, someone who had joined the army (so had a job to go to).

I think it goes deeper than "social deprivation".

I am convinced that it is down to parenting, and boundary setting and general disintegration of authority figures. I see it every day in my little middle class world; some of my children's school friends behave appallingly, have absolutely no boundaries despite their parents being professionals and they never suffer any consequence for their bad behaviour, not at school not at home.

at Jemima

Sounds like it could be her, doesn't it? Bloody Hell. Sounds like someone who shouldn't be allowed within a mile of vulnerable/troubled kids, that's for sure.

Here it is, Wiggly: thetvcollective.org/2011/08/looting-for-an-identity-by-marcus-ryder/

You just put before and after the address.

Orm, I would say that salaries cluster near the average wage here so less of an extreme divide between standards of living.