Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

Agree, BodyofChrist.

Cogito, you wrote:

@Solopower I think you're quite wrong on the political motivation. If anything, there was a strong anti-police motivation, largely I suspect because the police are seen as interfering in the way they like to live i.e. just the wrong side of the law.

I don't think it's because the police are interfering in the way they like to live. I think it's more to do with feeling they are being unfairly treated by them, especially if they are young, whether white or black or students or demonstrators.

That is true of some communities in Ireland today, ER, but many people feel that the Celtic tiger destroyed a lot of that. Are you planning to return to Ireland? Because it's pretty grim here at the moment.

"So would this not have happened if the government had issued every household in England with a flatscreen TV? In other words, just give them the consumer goods they want and they'll be happy? (Genuine question)"

No. That wouldn't work. It doesn't take long for people to stop seeing handouts as something to be thankful for and start seeing them as entitlements, at which point the feeling of being deprived is as strong as ever. This is analogous to the way in which comfortably-off people living among those with slightly less will feel rich, whereas if they moved to a neighbourhood where most people have more they will feel impoverished and dissatisfied. The perception of abundance is totally relative.

The four nights of looting are merely a symptom not the disease.

It's cancerous, wide spread and will be VERY difficult or nigh impossible to eradicate.

I reckon this should help the northwest and scotland over the next couple of days. Never so pleased to see severe weather warnings.

Agree Body.

A big issue is that the UK has a very low level of social mobility. The last few governments seem to be determined to squash any opportunity for people to improve themselves, or their position in society - abolishing grammar schools, outrageous tuition fees, combined with a national "tall poppy syndrome" where anyone seen to be trying to rise above the parapet as some kind of stuck up snob (look at the vitriol launched against the Middletons, Posh and Becks etc.). If you want to climb out of your social class, it is nigh impossible in this country. To get into politics, you need to basically work as an unpaid intern for ages. Same for law, finance etc. There must be hundreds, if not thousands, of intelligent talented individuals who are stuck on sink estates, facing a bleak future. The frustration must be incredible.

To the poster below- agree weather is a factor - a good dose of rain will see them off I reckon!

I must admit, the first thing I thought of was that all the cities affected have a significant population of certain ethnic/racial backgrounds. Whereas Scotland, Wales and the North East to my knowledge are relatively 'white'.

Not saying this is the cause, but it did seem a bit of an 'elephant in the room' that no one was mentioning this glaringly obvious fact. I didn't want to be the first to say it! I know there have been plenty of white people joining in the looting, but surely it's possible that the trouble has started from within particular communities? From the BBM messages that have been published, I certainly get that impression.

It's quite possible of course that the trouble will spread to other areas next, which would make this theory less compelling!

Beoley, I am also sad that in among the seasoned criminals, there will be many young people who are not evil but who just got carried away by all the 'excitement' and sense of power and caught up in a mob mentality, who will end up with a criminal record. I wonder how they will feel when they are alone in a police cell, without the support of their friends.

My bet is that they will be very harshly treated by police and courts and will end up far more angry and dangerous to society than they were before they took part in the looting.

Another reason why I think London and Manchester - huge schisms between the different social strata. Places like Hackney and Dalston, there is grinding poverty and very close by you have incredibly wealthy neighbourhoods; it's like another planet, the high street of Hackney vs. New Bond Street etc. the contrast is constant and VERY in your face. No wonder people feel that they're owed a piece of the pie too.

If your lifestyle depends on dealing drugs, trading knock-offs, being involved in a gang etc., then the police are the bad-guys, interrupting your business. Of course some will get unfairly tarred with the same brush & stopped and searched when they've done nothing wrong. But to think everyone out on the streets the last few nights is an unfairly-maligned salt-of-the-earth type would be naive in the extreme.

It is not a race issue, it is a societal one.

So, people living in the same area ... and what we see reported overwhelmingly is Asian shopkeeper with his livelihood trashed ...

"My bet is that they will be very harshly treated by police and courts and will end up far more angry and dangerous to society than they were before they took part in the looting. "

You make that sound like we should go easy on them. Everyone has a choice how they behave. Getting caught up in the moment is no excuse. The lad who threw the fire-extinguisher at the student demos found that to his cost. So will these people.

I also very much doubt that most of the looters are aware of the current political/economic climate. It was an opportunistic crime spree. If it was politically motivated or motivated by hatred of police, why did the mob not target police stations and government buildings, which they could very easily have done?

I also don't believe that any of these people are lacking in opportunity. They all went to school, they all had the option to gain an education and get a job. So it is a mindset that is the problem - why go to school, work hard, get a job and progress through a career when you can deal drugs/pimp/steal and get what you want that way? I also think it is really unhelpful that as a society the most successful and revered have done nothing to gain that success - I'm talking about footballers and wags and the whole sleb culture. We have no respect for political or business leaders, scientists, academics etc. Anything that takes slog is not seen as worthwhile anymore and we can see this in general with school children. Wag, pole dancer and footballer are seen as valid career choices these days.

Nope BodyofC we are not planning to return to live in Ireland though we do have a bolt hole over there if things get really nasty here in the mean time. We plan to go to NZ.
My family in Ireland are relatively well off still and live in rural communities where family and community are still strong. Yeah I do know not all areas in Ireland have fared so well.
I think the rot in Ireland began when access to the British media became more wide spread and people got their heads turned by the rampant consumerism portrayed. It was a form of contagion.

Agree with Grimma that the Asian shopkeepers must be as horrified as the rest of us by all this. A huge generalisation, but I see them (and most local business people) as 'pillars of society' types.

Also, so many people came to the UK to get away from violence. They are unlikely to want to recreate it here.

These are other reasons why:

• no respect for authority. at schools teachers are powerless to stop students from misbehaving, so people are learning quite early on that you can do what you like and there are no consequences
• like Callisto said, the sleb culture. The whole idea that you can become fabulously wealthy and famous by going on The X Factor for ten minutes or shagging a footballer. It's almost like people who work hard and put in the effort to achieve something are putzes - why bother?
• No respect for other people, or other people's property

No violence in Oxford, Edinburgh,etc etc.
High poverty, no looting. Why?

And a complete lack of empathy. I think that was really, really obvious with the torching of peoples homes.

Callisto you are spot on, I despair at the lack of decent role models for my DD. Today's culture of entitlement means that many people don't see why they shouldn't have x, y or z and if it can be gained by marrying a celebrity/pimping yourself on a moronic gameshow or displaying your 'talent' on national TV why bother with the 9-5? Of course I am generalising but I really believe it's how a lot of people think - working or earning something is not seen as the way to get what you desire.

I read an interesting piece by Marcus Ryder, current affairs editor for BBC Scotland (and a black Londoner). I don't know how to do links I'm afraid but if you google " Looting for an identity by @Marcusryder" you will find it, it answer the question i was pondering.

And a complete lack of empathy. I think that was really, really obvious with the torching of peoples homes.

and mugging someone who has already been attacked - who is bleeding and clearly disorientated.

It is down to lack of respect - for anyone else, authority, and bottom line for themselves. They have no work ethic, and no plan how to realistically get out of the aimless lives they have.

Callisto wrote: Wag, pole dancer and footballer are seen as valid career choices these days.

This is an excellent point.

Also, Britain's got Talent, Big Brother, X Factor, Pop Idol, The Jersey Shore, The Geordie Shore, and the many other crap reality TV shows have helped create an expectation that money and riches can be yours without ever having to study or graft or put in your time.

Do they teach Citizenship in Scottish schools like they do in England? (Don't know cos DD is only starting P1 next week!)

Maybe the schools are teaching them their responsibilities rather than just their rights?