Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

And Wales. Don't forget Wales. There is some terrible deprivation in South Wales in particular.

I was talking about this with a friend. I did primary teacher training in Swansea and did a couple of placements in some very rough ares. However the behaviour in the classroom was 10 times better than the school I eventually got a job in, in and English school in a much better off area. Some of the parents in the Swansea school looked to my rural, middle class eyes frankly alarming, but they were never anything other than supportive and respectful. That's what I think has been lost in some parts of England, and somehow has been retained in Scotland and Wales. Don't know anything about NI - sorry.

Thanks solo I couldn't find out how to do that ! (bit slow with tech stuff).

Yes Ormirian today we are experiencing the delights of a Scottish Summer; ie chilly and wet, with more of the same forecast over the next few days!

"That's what I think has been lost in some parts of England"

Thanks for the 'some parts' bit! I think all this generalising about England is about as helpful as generalising about the UK.

Agree Orm - as I said earlier in the thread there are huge, and glaringly obvious gaps between the poor and wealthy in London. It has some of the biggest extremes in the country.

maypole Have a look at the link I posted about Alexis Bailey, if that is her I don't think she is drawing a teacher's salary at the moment!

I think whoever commented on there being more of a community spirit in areas of Scotland/S Wales (huge generalisation obv) is right.

Yes, if it is her Jemima she isn't teaching at the moment (if it is her of course).

But she would have been so I don't think she is suffering from social depravation she is educated for god sake

These are children, and they dont know about the bankers bonuses and MPs fiddling expenses (otherwise they might have had the sense to hit up canary wharf and knightsbridge!) but they do clearly have some misguided sense of entitlement and lack of fear of punishment from either parents or the police.

They may not necessarily be poor in the way that we think of (my home village is the poorest in north wales - lovely claim to fame - but everyone has sky tv and a new car ). My niece in London thinks that she is poor because she only had one pair of Ugg boots for christmas whereas her friends had 3-4pairs (why????) and yes they all have blackberries or iphones on contract paid for by their parents. I on the other hand am gobsmacked at how much she has and how spoilt she is, but then there is a pressure on her to maintain a certain level within her social group and on my sister too. Whilst (I hope, I did text to check!) she wouldn't go as far as joining in with looting and mob mentality I think I could see how this would escalate for "poorer" children.

I have to say I did feel safe in Wales the last few nights (touch wood).

Off to read guardian article now....

About that teacher: anyone can be envious and greedy, they don't have to be 'deprived'.

What interests me is why so many people feel this way. Someone wrote an interesting post earlier about how local it all is, ie how you are more likely to compare yourself with your neighbours and feel dissatisfied/satisfied as a result. Maybe it's because we now have such a lot of information about the most intimate details of the lives of rich people.

Wigglybeezer, I think this is the article you meant?

Xpost with Solo.

They are the depraved deprived.

There are a lot of people who are struggling, I am homeless in two months time. I am really pissed off with the council at the moment but I won't be firebombing them because it is wrong.

"As for comments about the racial make up in Scotland; you people are aware that Glasgow, one of the poorest cities in the UK has a massive Asian population, right?

It wasn't the Asian population I was thinking of..."

As far as I can tell Asian people don't seem to have been particularly involved in the looting. Katharine Birbalasingh wrote this in the Telegraph about black youngsters and violent crime in London:
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/

Yes maypole that was my point - she is not socially deprived and is still participating in this destructive criminal behaviour. I think a lot of people involved will have spotted an opportunity and taken it.

There's something about a consumer society, where goods and lifestyles are dangled in front of the have-nots, while it's made very clear to them that there's no legitimate way to have the same lifestyle as the people they want to emulate. Businesses make millions out of promoting hip-hop stars who died in gang fights. What message do their videos send to young people growing up in poverty? What message does the gaping, and worsening divide between rich and poor give them? And why are one lot of looters condemned and (presumably will be) sent to prison, while the looters in the financial services industry get away scot free?

I used to live near Clapham junction - a couple of hundred yards from the shops that were looted. Like most inner city areas in the capital, there's severe poverty and real wealth side by side. Bankers living in Victorian workers' terraced houses that now go for £1.5m, next door to crime-ridden estates with multiple crack dens, where decent people would never dare tell the police they had seen a shooting for fear of reprisals.

"As for comments about the racial make up in Scotland; you people are aware that Glasgow, one of the poorest cities in the UK has a massive Asian population, right?

It wasn't the Asian population I was thinking of..."

As far as I can tell Asian people don't seem to have been particularly involved in the looting. Katharine Birbalasingh wrote this in the Telegraph about black youngsters and violent crime in London:
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/

What I mean (and didn't put very well) is that there is a lot of opportunistic motivation. It's not just the so called 'underclass' who are involved in this.

London riots: Young thugs got a lift home with mum when they finished looting
by Ryan Parry, Daily Mirror 10/08/2011 Decrease font size Increase font size

That says it all really

Children do get the message early on that they are worthless nobodies for not having the right clothes and shoes. Agressive advertising affects them from an early age. My DD wanted lelli kelli shoes aged 3 because of the adverts. A lot of shops selling trainers looted.

Good parenting and instilling the right values helps counter this though..

Interesting comment here from Winston Smith (Generation F Author) about the riots. Note, no mention of race.
here

Encyclogirl, what trite and meaningless contribution to the debate. 'people would have to be bussed in from Dublin....' Really? You are not improving the stereotypical portrayal of Corkonions, that's for sure.

Wigglybeezer - that's a very interesting article, and a thoughtful analysis of black communities in the UK, and why this hasn't happened in Scotland. But I'm not sure 'identity' is the whole answer - and clearly it wasn't just black people taking part in the riots.

The point he makes about Scotland and Scottish identity - does that also apply to Wales and Northern Ireland?