Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

Aitch - the essay is in Freakonomics - v interesting!

Am now going to say ffs again. ALL of us are envious all of the time because marketing exists to make us feel that way. It's NO EXCUSE.

Because people in Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland don't have Blackberry Messenger?

I think Bloody Friday was the last riot proper in Scotland apart from the Rangers/ Celtic one thirty years ago.

I always feel that the Scots tend to be a fairly patient lot who tolerate so much then vote the buggers out.

The poll tax issue was dealt with by ensuring the tories never had power in Scotland again. Sorry to generalise but I really do think the Scots sort things out on a more political or debating level than ransacking and looting.

And, it is always raining.

it's no excuse, obviously, but what if you just do not have or have never learned to have the tools for impulse control that we have?

i'm going to mention jamie's dream school again, remember how open-mouthed we were at the way that situations spiralled out of control so quickly? no respect for authority etc etc etc. BUT at heart they were sweet, bright kids who wanted to get on in life, they just super-duper didn't ahve a clue how to conduct themselves.

here's an excerpt from the drug dealer essay

I suspect the rioters have a number of different motives for getting involved.

Maybe some of the original disorder and protest was by people who believe they are victims of long term deprivation and discrimination and who wanted to protest.

Some are gang leaders / members who have united against the police because they perceive that the police are weak right now and they can therefore get their own back whilst making some money.
I think many more are just bored schoolchildren who have grown up without respect for authority or indeed for anyone or anything, and with no fear of being punished.

Many of them are doing it because it is fun. They are enjoying themselves and having fun at everyone else's expense.

I think even though there are pockets of serious deprivation in Scottish cities, there aren't the same large areas which have their own "culture" in the same way as some areas of the bigger English cities. The areas of deprivation are much more mixed - older people who still have a sense of communities, wasters who aren't that motivated to care, plus of course some "disaffected youth" - but I don't think they reach "critical mass" in neighbourhoods in quite the same way as in places in London or Birmingham etc.

yes, our towns are smaller and we are more higgledy-piggledy with different people, i think.

weirdly, if you think about it... this is the sort of thing that conscription and a jolly good war has historically sorted out.

I don't think these are political protests. I get the impression the many of them only have a very vague idea of who the govt is and what it stands for.

I think they aren't all deprived. I think a lot of it is not being part of the bigger society - their loyalty is to their mates - not their community. They see a chance to get free booze, fags, electrical goods etc and think no-one is stopping them so why shouldn't they help themselves. They also see the police as authority and the obvioius thing to rebel against. They get a thrill from being able to taunt them and seemingly get no reaction.

Many of them may not have jobs because they have no qualifications - and weren't willing to work to get those qualifications. They also probably don't want to work because it is boring and they would rather have fun with their mates. It is a symptom of their disengagement from wider society.

The bottom line is they don't understand the concept that it isn't yours so you can't have it.

I think they are wrong in thinking there is no comeback - they will not all get away with it. I also think though that the wider community needs to stand up to this - but not in a vigilantee way.

I'm not sure it's a response to this government, as the people who are doing this probably felt equally disenfranchised under the last government. In fact, I doubt they could tell you much about how any cuts are affecting their communities at all. They live in their own little bubble, where anyone in authority is to be depised and distrusted. It really does not matter whether it's a lovely cuddly Labour government or an axe-swinging Tory one to them.

Btw it is notable that it is not happening in Newcastle either.

OK, I will mention the elephant in the room. There are far fewer West Indians in Scotland. While photos clearly show white gobs enjoying the looting, a disproportionate number of the looters were young Afro Carribean and mixed race youngsters. Something has gone very wrong in these communities. Correction! All of us in England have allowed something to go wrong.

White gobs, not gobs. Though gobs works in this context, I feel.

My iPad won't let me write the word Y O B. Sorry!

All trends take longer to reach the north.

Look at how it crept up the country from London. Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool, Nottingham, then Manchester. It'll reach Newcastle and Scotland before the week is out.

Read Ttosca (inspired!) and also Debivamp on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/politics/1276063-You-have-to-laugh-or-you-wouls-cry?pg=2

Those are good points, throckenholt and fellatio.

I think you're right about the point that they don't understand 'it isn't yours so you can't have it'. I think there are questions to be asked about how we raise our children, about how schools work and about how we give parents the skills to teach their children how to behave.

Many of the rioters seem to be naughty children who haven't been disciplined and so are now violent, greedy and cruel adults.

Work can be great fun and give you a huge sense of achievement. But if you have never learnt this as a child, and you have little prospect of earning money to buy 'stuff' that is so endlessy advertised to you, and you think you can get away with just taking it (you can, because the police have been somewhat useless), then the choice seems obvious.

BodyofChristlegs:
My family are all Irish. I was born/lived in England all my life.
I think the reason it's not happened in Ireland is that family and community is alive still over there whereas in England family and community have been broken down over the last 20-30 years.
The Tories under Thatcher set it rolling and New Liebour accelerated it.

DP and I are planning our escape. There is in our opinion no coming back from moral and fiscal destruction engineered over the past few decades. England is in terminal decline. There is no coming back from this.

Abra1d - there was a huge mix of people, from all races, involved in the rioting.

My brother's explanation is that it's too cold (it has been warm in London these last few weeks).

I think part of it is there was/is a core gang of individuals who started it. It's been said that a lot of the people who have been picked up are known to the police. I guarantee that the majority though are opportunists, and there's a degree of mob mentality taking over. You find out in your area that you can get free stuff by looting, and there's no police to stop you? go for it!

I love how it has become okay to appear as if you are being brave by mentioning the 'elephant in the room', as if it was on the tip of everybody's tongue and they were just afraid to say it. It is not a race issue, it is a societal one.

I doubt England is in terminal decay. It takes more than four nights of looting to undermine a thousand year plus civilization.

The hard sale advertising, the consumer culture brain washed the already weak willed youth, making them believe that they have to buy everything. The bankers with their eye wateringly huge bonuses and politicians with their disgusting expense claims give them the message that crime pays. Compare to the previously listed groups, these kids are only petty criminals. But they are just throwing their future away. If they had problem getting job up till now, it will be impossible with a criminal record. If I was a local shopkeeper in a looted city, I wouldn?t want to give them a job, knowingly that they wrecked my shop.

Of course its not a political protest (though there are doubtless some shitstirrers making it worse)

A political protest would not start by attempting to loot a sports shop in a shopping centre, which I gather what the first attempt in Manchester consisted of