Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

NOt illogical at all.

Since the bleeding-heart post yesterday, painstakingly detailing the socio-economic politcs behind the riots, which was so poignant and moving that one Mner asked if she could post it on her facebook, I have changed my mind.

I've reached the conclusion that race and class issues are all very well but men will behave like this on the flimsiest of pretexts.

So you can analyze race, class and ethnicity as much as you like, but if you ignore the fact that from the top of the male hierarchy (politicians fucking over the poor) down to the bottom (unemployed men with no prospects) this is all being done by MEN, and we need to seriously look at his, then none of it will make any sense.

This is the elephant in the living room, and women need to name it.

Jesus Christ sakura will you give it a rest with the man hating rants! Most threads I see you on you are shouting about how evil all men are. Get yourself some therapy, you clearly have some kind of issue.

Oh sure gender is part of the mix - testosterone has a lot to answer for.

Its perhaps also plays into why we get phenomena such as 'Brave Louise' - did any of you hear the interview with the doughty hairdresser who faced down a horde of a couple of hundred youths who left her premises alone. I can't help feeling that if a bloke had tried this he'd have been beaten up. Even in these yobs, some trace of 'benevolent sexism'?

Made me wonder if the vigilantes (eagerly organised by EDL ) would be better staying at home and women - mothers, grannies, sisters - reclaiming the streets. Just a thought...

Now read Torcuil's article and agree with Aitch : he can't have been in Glasgow recently. Maybe he's from Bearsden originally and doesn't realise that the Gorbals are walking distance, with easy access across a bridge, from the city centre or that the Fort is in the middle of the Eastern "schemes" or that Silverburn is right beside Pollok and Priesthill

Agree with those that have said that the Scottish right wing is different to the English right wing - more of the old "One Nation" Tories. There is still a stronger sense of doing what is right for society rather than for your own pocket.

I remember years ago being on a specialist Health Service Management course in Manchester and being presented to a guy form the Kings Fund (called Robert Maxwell - can remember his name cos it was the day that Robert Maxwell the media tycoon fell off his boat) and he was saying that WW2 had been a great unifying experience across the classes which had helped create the necessary environment in which to establish the welfare state and that ever since then, "society" had been moving back towards the individual rather than the common good with the exception of Scotland

Interestingly, every single person on that course (all supposed "high flyers" who had come into health service management from successful careers in industry) was either Scottish or Scottish Uni educated - although we were all working in England.

sakura
Men and women have thoroughly enjoyed their time spent doing early Christmas shopping. Women may not have instigated the riots but they sure as hell collaborated in them, leaders don't get very far if the sheep don't willingly follow.

In better news at least the courts are making a good start at charging the rioters, the article also shows the range of different backgrounds these idiots came from:
Rioters face the courts

And in order to try and tie this in with some relevance to op's question I do believe I spy a Scottish flag on the left arm of the charming fellow with his trousers half-way down his legs. I am never going to understand the current trend for displaying underpants, they are supposed to be under your clothes. Hint is in the name.

'Agree with those that have said that the Scottish right wing is different to the English right wing - more of the old "One Nation" Tories. There is still a stronger sense of doing what is right for society rather than for your own pocket.'

I wish people would give this one a rest. I, my parents, and many friends in England, vote Tory. We are all active in local voluntary projects. None of us are doing it for our own pocket. It is intellectually lazy to keep claiming that all English Tories are only interested in their own wealth. As intellectually lazy as claiming that all Socialists want to take other people's money from them.

Not very sure how this is being put down to being because of men- we DO have men in Scotland too, you know (no jokes, please, or I will forced to administer a Glesgae kiss )

lifeisquiteabsurd! that yobbo with the big underpants has clearly MUGGED a nice scottish person for his scotland badge! i am so glad you have brought our attention to this terrible crime. we are all given one badge each in our lifetime, it's the equivalent of what you people call passports.

I have seen the good work Place2Be has done with kids from disadvantaged chaotic homes. We need more of this.

In Ireland people would be more inclined to emigrate than riot. Probably true of many a country in a crisis. I grew up there before the days of the Celtic tiger and it was grindingly poor but we had decent education that gave us a way out. Not brilliant but good enough to give a start in life.

AitchTwoOh
I do apologise, I should have realised it would obviously be some English thug having taken advantage of some poor innocent wee lad. It all stems from the inherent violence in the English genes, we are all direct descendants of Edward I of course and so take every opportunity to oppress the Scots, even down to stealing sweaters. There are no depths to which we will not stoop!

I would rob a Scottish granny of a Tulloch teacake because it is my right to have it.

really? most folk would go for a tunnock's teacake i think...

Sakura, women are doing better in almost every area than men.School,university,more women as lawyers and doctors etc.Women are definitely not oppressed these days and are certainly not victims.In fact the 'girl' rioters looked as if they were having a good laugh in all the pictures.There must be valid reasons for you to think like this-but please discuss them on the politics or relationship thread.

I think anyone who tried to take a tunnock's teacake from a Scottish granny would be a very brave person indeed!

Whoops, sorry, iPad spelling 'correction'.

The riots and all that has accompanied them this week, have NOTHING to do with deprivation.

Majority of rioters have been shown to be opportunist thugs.

No-one who is TRULY deprived would dream of behaving in such a manner.

teta - would love to see statistics to back up what you are saying. I had been led to believe (by my sociology/gender module at uni last year) that the reverse was true in every area EXCEPT compulsory schooling (in which girls do generally out perform boys).

an ENGLISH ipad, no doubt.

apology accepted, lifeisquiteabsurd, but if you had paid closer attention to the historical drama Braveheart you would know that all descendants of Edward I are also Scottish, via William Wallace himself.

"...but if you had paid closer attention to the historical drama Braveheart you would know that all descendants of Edward I are also Scottish, via William Wallace himself."

So if we take Braveheart as gospel - it has after all been universally hailed as one of the most historically accurate films ever made - then all English people are in fact Scottish. But this means all the "English" rioters we saw across England are actually Scottish so does that in turn imply that the riots are actually a Scottish problem?

More women than men going on to university for over 16 years and also women are more likely to do better ,less likely to give up but are more likely to go onto lower paid jobs ,and not get as far as men, because of time out to raise families.Google The Independant- education for up-to-date statistics.

Aitch, it's a chapter in Freakonomics, the book.

WRT rioting, to me it seems inversely proportional to the amount of mixing together of different social classes. The more polarised the wealth in any particular country, the more the wealthy shun public services such as state hospitals, schools, transport, areas with social housing nearby and so on, and the less they are aware of any serious social problems building up around them. Instead, it seems to me, many engage in conspicuous consumption and regularly self-justify their insulated, comparatively egocentric lifestyles whilst arguing that the less fortunate only have themselves to blame (I even see it here on MN), which is very similar to the kinds of arguments

Meanwhile youth disaffection, usually male, which looks more tribal rather than egocentric from the outside, also builds up until it finds some sort of excuse for a rumble, and before you know it there's rioting and looting and social meltdown.

I'm a Scot living in England.

My feeling: the weather, clearly. It's been torrential in Scotland; I'm visiting at the moment and it's hellish :grin:

cf football holliganism: Scots are very proud indeed, some would say smug, about being Different from the English. To be a Scot is partially to define yourself as Not English. So distancing oneself from the Rioting English would be a matter of national pride.

Disparity in wealth: in London the poor have nothing, the rich are multimultimillionaires. In Glasgow (say) the rich are much less rich than the rich in London.

They do also say the happiest countries are the ones where the gap between rich and poor is the smallest

Niceguy2 posted a link on his thread which leads into this article, which identifies 10 causes of the riots:

Welfare dependence
Social exclusion
Lack of fathers
Spending cuts
Weak policing
Racism
Gangsta rap and culture
Consumerism
Opportunism
Technology and social networking

I think we've more or less covered all of them!

(Thank you, Niceguy!)

"are more likely to go onto lower paid jobs ,and not get as far as men, because of time out to raise families"

really??? that's the only reason that women don't get as far as men or end up in lower paid jobs?