Depraved or deprived: What lies behind these riots, and why aren't they happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Solopower]

I've been reading the threads on the riots and I wondered if we needed one on the causes.

People's ideas seem to range from thinking the rioters are just opportunistic criminals to socially and culturally disadvantaged youngsters.

But why isn't there any rioting in Scotland, for example, where there are pockets of extreme social deprivation?

Zoe Williams' article on the psychology of looting is worth reading, imo:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting?CMP=twt_gu

and english people were routinely beaten up in dundee in the 90s? tbh i just find that ridiculously hard to believe. on what grounds? their accent?

Agreed, GentleOtter.

Also, our normally blue mottled skin is now hanging off after being fried with the searing sun and we are all nursing sunburn whilst bedaubed with calamine lotion.
Add midge bites and clegs and it gets too sore to go out.

A riot is the last thing on your mind.

Someone up thread mentioned immigration as a cause. I grew up in south London and like to point out that these 'immigrants'' are actually third, fourth generation. They have grown up in British culture , they are its product. We cannot blame 'others,' we as a society have produced these young people.

oh yes, they are every bit as much 'immigrants' as my parents were, being third-generation scots via ireland. which is to say... not immigrants.

Lifeisquiteabsurd : however did you guess?

I did acknowledge that it was a bit of a special case.

BTW: we regularly used to get the "library" bus over to Dundee to go shopping and I never heard of anyone getting mugged. Even organised coaches to go over to see concerts in the Caird Hall (Genesis and Thin Lizzy - that dates me ). But maybe Dundee went downhill after I left (graduated in 84).

Lack of community? It's not just Scotland, Wales and Ireland that it isn't happening in but also why not in Devon and Cornwall, why not in Yorkshire, why not in the North-East? These areas all have huge swathes of deprived areas. How many children today know their neighbours? Children used to be disciplined by any adult who saw them misbehave, my friends mum recently told off a boy next door who was trashing the garden fence between the houses and he spat at her - he was probably about 7!

Why are they rioting?Because they can. Politicians and bankers have lost any moral authority by the way they have behaved, (fiddling expenses is stealing, just as much as kicking in a shop and taking pairs of trainers.)The craven way that many politicians behaved, refusing to take any responsibility for their behaviour, until forced, sent a strong message.
Teachers are not allowed to discipline in any way that is meaningful, and the kids know they can get them sacked or arrested by saying the teacher has touched them. If they get arrested and they are under 16, they get told "don't do it again", and after the second time, they figure out that's all going to happen, and it ceases to mean anything.
Parents are told to keep their kids under control, but exactly how do you stop a six foot teenager from going out the door? Tell them they will get arrested, and they will laugh (see above). Its the summer, and they have nothing to do.Everything costs too much money.
In London, kids from deprived backgrounds see people driving around in Ferraris and not paying parking tickets. If they try to get a job, they find they can't pay their rent/council tax etc while working, and there is no "credit" available to them as there is if they go to university (student loans). Many of them will no longer be able to even consider college due to fees.It takes a very strong-minded young person with an income of less than £50 per week JobSeekers (even if they have the grades) to think "I will pay fees of £9000 per year and support myself , as my family can't help me."

If an employer would like to take on a young person to help out and give them some work experience, just for a month or two, the huge amount of bureaucracy that goes with that makes it impossible to consider. Not to mention that the young person will promptly be removed from the social security system, and when the work experience comes to an end, will often be left for weeks without support before the system can be re-started.

So what is to be done? In the short term, they will be "punishing the guilty"... (where they are going to put them, or what they can do,I can't think), but unless adults behave well, teachers and parents are supported and given power to help young people know the right way to behave in society, and that materialism is not the be-all, this will likely happen again.
Sorry about the rant.

The Scots weren't always uninterested in rioting. Anyone remember the seventies when they used to come down to England for matches and pee and defecate in railway carriages, following a drunken rampage? Writing this from Scotland, where we are spending holidays with my husband's Scottish family, so no anti Scots sentiment from me, btw.

Haven't read the entire thread, as I don't have time to wade through 350+ messages, but here are my thoughts on "Why not Wales".

1. Poverty in Wales is different to poverty in England. Although there are obviously communities within the cities (and remember - we only have 5 cities in Wales) which suffer severe deprivation, the most deprived areas in Wales are not urban - poverty is highest in the Valleys. I can't really see youths from the Valleys either travelling to Cardiff to loot (cos it would cost too much and be too difficult to get there) or looting their home towns (not least - not much fun looting a pound store....)

1. Which brings me on to the make-up of society. I think Wales has a very strong sense of community. It is not who you are or what you do that is important if you are Welsh, it is where you come from. I was told once that it was fine to be an axe murderer as long as you are an axe murderer from (OUR village... and it really does seem to be like that. Having lived several places in England, and also in Scotland, I find the Welsh community I am living in to be both the strongest in community terms but also the most welcoming.

1. Politics - I don't really know much about Welsh politics - my impression though is that there is a sense that the WAG are trying their best (but just aren't very effective). The cuts etc that are happening are largely blamed on the London Govt, not the WAG.

1. Historically Wales has always been treated fairly badly by England (Act of Union, outlawing the Welsh language, the really quite horrendous treatment of the working classes when industrialisation hit the South of Wales) and I think for many the mine issues are not seen as so long ago. And so, in a sense, nothing is a bad as it was then...

1. Also don't forget the weather. Rioting just isn't cool if you have to remember to bring your brolly.

And I certainly have noticed a gentleness in public behavior up here that I find very attractive.

'Why are they rioting?Because they can. Politicians and bankers have lost any moral authority by the way they have behaved, (fiddling expenses is stealing, just as much as kicking in a shop and taking pairs of trainers.)The craven way that many politicians behaved, refusing to take any responsibility for their behaviour, until forced, sent a strong message.'

this makes some sense - if those in privileged positions are corrupt and can get away with it, those at the lower end will as well.

OhugeManatee

You see, this is why women get nowhere, and why we continue to be oppressed. You have all the evidence you need, staring you right in the face, that men are 100% responsible for an incident, such as these riots, and you always get one hopeful female voice piping up with "Yeh, yeh, but I saw a woman there too... so, so see, it's 50% women's fault"

GET REAL. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND.

WOmen did not instigate or organize these riots/lootings/pillaging. One man proudly stated that "his girlfriend and baby" were safe out home while he went out with the Enfield group to "protect" them.
MEn are doing this FOR KICKS.

oh, and the Norwegian mass murdered might have possibly spoken to a woman at some point too, so therefore women are 50% responsible for his violence too.

This is GENDERED behaviour. Pretending it is NOT gendered, that women are organizing this, and leading men on, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

Presumably little boys are also made of slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails, while girls are sugar and spice and all things nice?

Very feminist

And me saying get your heads out of the sand and ADMIT this was a gendered event has got nothing whatsoever to do with the straw man argument being pulled out that I think women are angels. Where did that come from?

seriously, we all might as well go home right now unless everybody can admit this was a gendered incident.

Yay! Off you go then

yes yes but I once saw a black man being mean to a white guy therefore racism and white male supremacy does not exist.

This is your argument OTheHuge

I ain't going anywhere O.
"We all might as well go home" is euphemism that expresses frustration, in this case, frustration at women putting their heads in the sand, or simply straight up LYING, by saying women instigated these riots

No one is saying that it was 50% women, or the whole thing was instigated by women. I don't understand where you're seeing that. But there was certainly more than one woman involved. We are not saying this based on a single report of one woman being there, as you seem to suggest. I don't understand why it's such a problem to admit this.

I am a feminist but even I think this is silly and to call it feminism makes all of us look ridiculous. It's not anti-feminist to admit that a fair number of women were involved in these shameful events, and that they are as responsible for their actions as the men, it's simply fact.

i can't be bothered to google as i'm not on my own PC and this one's slow but i'm pretty sure that the gap between richest and poorest in scotland is less marked than the gap between richest and poorest in england.

people in scotland who have money are more inclined to vote/campaign based on what is best for their community as a whole rather than what suits them - so someone living in bearsden or newton mearns who earns a fortune will still vote labour rather than tory (for example) if they believe that it leads to a fairer system overall. there were a few articles about it at the time of the election, that people in england were much more inclined to vote for whatever party worked best for them.

the area of scotland i live in has a strong history of unionisation/socialism/political engagement which means that people in the pub talk about political events, if i'm out with my friends we're more likely to be talking about the ethics of taking a sickie on a strike day than which shoes look good! from my experience of living in london that kind of political discussion as part of every day life is much less common.

the town i'm in is wealthy overall but the 3 towns nearest are collectively top of the league table for:
unemployment
social deprivation
drug and alcohol abuse
but nobody is rioting - and the rain isn't the answer since it only started raining here yesterday... perhaps the self-medication theory presented above has some merit??

Ephiny, you have a very poor understanding of how oppression works. The women here are the hangers-on, and yes, the collaborators, but NOT, definitely NOT, the instigators.

Ephiny, are you actually going to force me to post a list of 20-30 youtube videos where there are ONLY men rioting, and no women to be seen.

And in return, you can post me some videos where there are ONLY women rioting, and no men to be found.

"The women here are the hangers-on, and yes, the collaborators, but NOT, definitely NOT, the instigators."

No one said they were.

"you can post me some videos where there are ONLY women rioting, and no men to be found."

No one said this happened. I certainly didn't .

Sorry but I really don't understand who you're arguing with Sakura, or what you're arguing for or against. I don't mean to offend you, but I don't think I can have this conversation any more, it's just too bizarre and illogical!