Tottenham rioting

[sfxmum]

has anyone heard? seems to be all over Twitter but not on other media
apparently police cars burning

I read one report that said there was another passenger in the car. So I'd like that cleared up first.

'Shots were exchanged' doesn't say who shot first and yes, I think that does matter. What if he was in the process of putting his weapon on the ground and surrendering when they shot him anyway?

I'm not trying to excuse the man's actions, I'm just saying that until we know for sure what happened I don't want to assume anything.

there is so much paranoia and exaggeration on this thread.
there are not huge amounts of deaths in police custody and we are not living in a police state.

nor is everyone in "challenged" inner city areas a "gangsta", the people in those areas should NOT be roped off and left to blast each other to pieces which is what some of you seem to think

fwiw a nyt journalist was interviewed earlier - he spoke to rioters and looters in tottenham and wood green and he said the people he spoke to were locals - giving the lie to it being outsiders who were responsible.

i really feel for the people of tottenham who have been right royally shafted by some in their midst. i hope people are safe and well - or as much as they can be in the circs. and i feel sorry for those whose areas are apparently being targeted tonight.

Fuck me - there are some nasty words on this thread.

Scum
thug
shithole

I can imagine that the people using these words do not live in Tottenham or an area like it. People who do live there have been good enough to come on to this thread and talk about their community only to be told by others that their community is a shithole. So fucking rude. So, so rude.

For some reason last night a community, or people outside it were angry enough to riot. I am not naive enough to think that there were not some people there who were just using it as an excuse for violence, but whatever their reasons there is a community breaking down.
If you can't dig deep enough to care about the adults living there, then maybe care about the children.
Would it not be more constructive to acknowledge that something has gone wrong and that there are people who feel that their only option in life is to carry a knife or gun.

Personally I would be more than happy for a government to take this problem seriously and try and fix things. That takes money. And I really can't imagine that anyone who is rejoicing in the death of a father of 4 would want their tax money spent on this problem, so it will just continue.

I do not know much about this problem myself, but I do live in London and i do live somewhere which was described on a thread last week as a shithole by some delightful mumsnetters.

Real people live here. The words used here are dehumanising and allow everyone to wash their hands of the problem as they don't look like me and don't act like me and therefore they are pieces of shit that deserve all they get.

This thread is seriously one of the most depressing and ignorant I have ever read on mumsnet.

oh yes and if people want justice maybe they should allow the process to be followed - after all, we eventually did find out the truth about de menezies, tomlinson etc.
rioting in the mean time won't fix anything - it will just make life worse for the people of tottenham/wood green/ enfield.

I can imagine that the people using these words do not live in Tottenham or an area like it. People who do live there have been good enough to come on to this thread and talk about their community only to be told by others that their community is a shithole. So fucking rude. So, so rude.

I'm from that area of London, so I know full well what it is like thanks very much. I used the term shithole because IMO, it is. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the way I feel about it.

Perhaps it's time for a Giuliani type Mayor to run London on a zero tolerance basis. It worked for New York, any reason why it shouldn't work here?

Al0uiseG

Can you explain to me the concepts of zero tolerance and how it worked?

Was crime reduced?

How many people were sent to prison fairly/unfairly/wrongly?

Because we all know that sometimes people do get sent to prison unfairly.

Was there ever a final evaluation of how zero tolerance had performed?

bitwierd in many respects i agree with you and we were voicing similar concerns about the tone and content of this thread.
but where we differ is this:
i do live in a "challenged" part of London and would say money is not the fixer per se.
people can be poor but have pride in themselves and their community and abide by the law.
youths carrying guns/knives is about the "respect" crap they seem to spout off and is nothing to do with police etc
change has to come from within our communities and families - we need to be clear about what is and isn't acceptable, that does not seem to be getting across

Kebba Jobe

Shiji Lapite

Joy Gardner

These are just a few examples and over the last few decades there have been too many unlawful and unnecessary deaths in police custody.

LDNmummy - has it happened in the past? yes. there are questions about deaths even this year. but to say there ARE many (present tense) is ott imho and contributes to paranoia between communities and police that serve no-one in the end.

In response to Alouisegg's message What's wrong with Tottenham Goulasher replied "They're people with no morals and no power in life Alouisegg"

Thank you for speaking for all of us who live in Tottenham. It looks like all who live in your house have no brains. See sweeping statements should generally be avoided.

Mark Duggan lost his cousin in a stabbing in March. His cousin was like a brother to him, and he was, according to witnesses in one report, getting increasingly 'paranoid'. I interpret that as he was getting scared of being attacked and bought a gun.

The police arrest was part of the covert 'Trident' operation, and my guess is that there was information that he carried a gun which ensued in this arrest. Now while Mark Duggan was grieving for his close family, he was also paranoid and carrying a gun.

This is just violence breeding violence and a major tragedy.

All of this was caused by the neglect of the public services in dealing with the struggles of the daily lives of young people in Tottenham. Haringey council who provide most of the preventative services, quite frankly, haven't a clue about how to approach the desperate situation that is the result of so many people given a bleak future from birth. People in Tottenham struggle to survive. They don't own their own homes, they get subsistence wages which mean their children have to go into childcare, and come home exhausted. I worked for a woman who put her boys to bed at 5pm just after she picked them up. Occasionally there are two parents in the household.

The voluntary programmes trying to support the young people of Tottenham, are either closing down due to lack of funds and many were hardly funded in the 'years of plenty' that we were supposed to have had recently. The various church groups try to fill their space.

The government and the Council need to sort this out before more people lose their lives.

Social neglect is to blame for the violence here, the police were just doing their job and that happened to end in tragedy. Mark Duggan was already expecting he would be killed violently - I don't think he's looking down on us now thinking the Police should have just let him walk off into the sunset carrying a gun, either.

I'm about to cook dinner, so no, later perhaps. In the meantime Google is your friend and New York has been improved beyond all recognition. A vast city that is safer than it's ever been.

With Forensics, pathology and DNA I wouldn't worry too much about wrongful imprisonment. Bearing in mind that something like 10% of people commit 90% of crime (made up stat, but something like that) the clear up rate is a steep curve when zero tolerance is implemented.

This is a relatively up to date chart showing deaths in police custody over the years.

It is notable that the majority of these deaths happen when the person is already in custody.

You cannot say that New York cleaned up because of zero tolerance. Crime rates also dropped precipitously at the same time in other cities that did not use it. It's a really complex story, no one knows for sure what the real answer is, but there were many, many factors at play.

A lot of innocent people were shot by police during that time as well. there was one man who was shot while handing over his wallet to police, because the police thought the wallet was a gun. Remember that, all of you who commented upthread that people deserve to be executed by police just for carrying a gun.

teejwood how many would you count as excessive then

I would have thought just one death when a person is already in custody would be questionable enough.

My first thought when I watched, slackjawed, last night, was that it would affect tourism. It looked like a warzone. I have no idea what actually happened, but it would put me off visiting a country where that happened. I know it was only a tiny area of London, but I wouldn't know that if was a foreign tourist.

Bulletwithaname

I agree that there are parts of Tottenham that are truly horrible. But why is it a shithole? Having lived in the Haringey area for nearly 25 years there appears to have been little investment in the environment and people. The local council seems to think a few hanging baskets of flowers around Bruce Grove consititues regeneration. Local govt and its Officers have so little imagination.

Tottenham does and should have so much potential.

I cannot believe my eyes. This thread shows the very worst of MN.

What is 'bleeding heart' about taking some pity on a family who may have known nothing about what their father/son/husband was allegedly up to? Do they not deserve some sympathy?

And why on earth shouldn't we all want police accountability, and to clarify exactly what happened? Isn't this accountability one of the central tenets of a democratic society? The police may have acted entirely reasonably. if they did, they will have no problem with being held accountable, surely?

And what the actual fuck is 'wooly' about wanting to probe a little more deeply into the causes of this riot, beyond tabloid-esque bleating about 'gangsters' and 'scumbags' and 'shithole areas'.

Christ, some of you are thick. Hiding this thread. Anyone interested in proper debate and informed opinion, see you over on Twitter.

sing sorry this problem can't be patched up just by throwing money at it.
society starts with families and communities - not with getting ££ from the government. in the history of humanity there were communities before local and national governments! of course there was also disease, lack of sanitation etc but do we really need to go there

imho - many people do not feel responsible for their own actions. it's all someone else's fault. whether it's the government saying it's the fault of bullying from news international, or bankers coming up with ever more comples ways of swapping debt in order to make a profit and then saying it's the fault of the "system", or someone who feels like they have to carry a gun and ends up killing someone else. it's always someone else's fault.

saying it's social neglect buys into that line of thought that people aren't responsible for their actions - when they need to realise they are.

I've just heard a family member on the news, who was saying that the family do not condone any part of the rioting and (though they have unanswered questions), they do not want to be linked to the riots.

teejwood thanks for agreeing about the tone of the thread. I am by no means an expert and don't pretend to be. I wish money could fix the problems and I have no idea what would fix the issues. But something needs to be done because there are young lives being wasted.

I just wish people would think about the words they use because they hurt.

I live in an area of London that most people would (and do) sneer at. But it is wonderful and it is multi cultural and from what I can tell we all seem to rub along together pretty well.

bulletwithaname it may be your opinion, but in my opinion it is ill mannered and rude. You could express your views and experiences of living there a little better perhaps?

LDNmummy i did not say there were no deaths in fact i pointed out there were deaths under investigation just this year and NOWHERE did i say these deaths were acceptable. i just said that by claiming there are lots of deaths in police custody it feeds into assumptions about the police that might not actually be helpful, when we need communities and the police to work together more closely in order to try and reduce gun and knife crime in inner city areas.

I've just been looking for a pre-riot thread about the death of Mark Duggan, but have been unable to locate anything.

Was there one?

also tanya not sure if your statement about police accountability was directed at me? again, i did not say the police should not be help accountable. we need this investigation into Mark Duggan's death. we do not need already disadvantaged communities in london to be targeted for premeditated rioting and looting. the latter does nothing for the former.