FURIOUS with Gove's maths comments

[BusterGut]

The man is a total twat.
He is so out of touch, he must be living on Mars.

Bloody 'pre-algebra' - that's missing no. sums in Y2.
Bloody 'maths every day' - who doesn't?
Bloody teaching maths till 18 ????????? (Pity the sec sch maths teachers)

GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
(I've written to the slimy little toad. Anyone else going to join me?

Hockey-yes.
I am very closely involved with maths curricula and most of how mathis is taught particulalrly to children with difficulties with maths is an embarassment.

There is nothing in what Gove says to suggest people sit an A Level in Maths.
How bizarre you should conclude that this is the case.

'He is fuelling the public's opinion that standards are low in state schools, and that the 3Rs are neither taught properly nor regularly.'

And you are saying they aren't Buster??!!!
Jesus wept...

?The first law of thermodynamics demonstrates the relationship between internal energy, added heat, and work within a system.
?The second law of thermodynamics relates to the natural flow of heat within a closed system.
?The third law of thermodynamics states that it is impossible to create a thermodynamic process which is perfectly efficient.
... not forgetting Boyle's Law, which he also feels we should all know - the inversely proportional relationship between the absolute pressure and volume of a gas,

Well, what's the problem with that Thisisnice? Much more relevant than climate change or food scares.

'I guess, he isnt going to attract overly well qualified mathematicians into schools whilst he is busy cutting teachers pay though. I am sure they could earn more and get a better pension in the private sector in business etc. I understand that in countries where education is doing very well, teachers are paid very well and respected and are given more time to prepare lessons etc. Unlike in this country. '

Oh come on. Teachers get paid a comfortable amount and have little to no chance of being given the boot if they are shite. I have come across teachers so poor it takes one's breath away (and I have worked with hundreds of them over many years.)
They wouldn't last two minutes in the private sector real world.

Yes, BusterGut.

And they were developed in the 19th century by Joule, Kelvin et al.

Newton died in 1727.

Yes, Moondog. I am suggesting that standards in maths are not low in primary schools. There are always going to be children who find maths difficult, and these are the children who do not reach the expected level by the end of Y6.

So you know about teachers who do not work in the real world and you work with them. So do you not work in the real world either?

Nicecage. I'm forever pondering the inverse relationship between the volume of the gas and the pressure in my central heating system. I assumed I was normal.

You forget, moondog that many teachers have actually worked in the private sector (through recessions) and know that many private sector workers sit on their arses all day phoning and e-mailing their mates. I used to work in a company where it was de rigeur to spend many happy hours perfecting your screen saver.

de rigueur

Not a good idea to use foreign terms if you can't spell them properly.

A slip of the finger moondog. And a little off the point.

I meant you were straying a little off the point...

I do agree that maths teaching in some schools is woefully inadequate and seems to stem from difficulty in recruiting teachers with good maths capability. My dd (7) has made little or no progress in maths this year. She is now doing Maths Whizz on the computer and it is highlighting so many gaps in her understanding. I'm crossing my fingers for a better, more interested teacher next year as I'd prefer not to have to teach the curriculum to her myself!

I'm not knocking teachers here - there are many wonderful inspirational teachers in the state system - but unfortunately we've encountered one of the worst this year

I don't agree with everything Gove says, but I do think some changes are long overdue.

What has he suggested (that he hasn't contradicted) that is 'long overdue'?

come on then moondog - you know the score - how easy is it to find a qualified maths teacher for secondary? how about one who can teach up to age 18? one who can teach beyond the current curriculum, if that's what he means? and then one who's actually good at their job as well as being qualified enough to teach it?

'Yes, Moondog. I am suggesting that standards in maths are not low in primary schools.'

Really?

Merci, why do you assume I am in any way masquerading as a teaching recruitment agency?

Maths instruction on most primary schools is dire and if kids do ok it's generally despite how they are taught, not becasue of it.
I have long ago resigned myself to the fact that if I want my children to have a proper grounding in the basics, I have to do it myself.

Firstly that article is three years old.

Secondly, its major thrust is the percentage of level 3s (i.e. children working 2-3 years ahead of their age).

Thirdly, it says that one in ten children cannot do simple sums expected at their age. Well, as there are a proportion of SEN children (around the 10% mark) I would expect that. At the same time, in the same articale, it states that over 20% of children gained level 3 in maths, which means that they were working 2-3 years ahead! That leaves an 'average pot of about 70% between the two. I wouldn't say that was too bad.

my mistake moondog, i thought you actually worked in schools and so had some knowledge of how hard in fact it is to recruit anyone at all to teach maths at secondary level. I was then intrigued by your 'oh come on' to the idea of it being hard to find well qualified maths teachers.

just google something along the lines of 'maths teaching recrutment crisis' or 'maths teaching recruitment shortage', or maybe ask why the govt already pays £9000 bursaries to people training in maths
yet still they do not flock to teach
ah well, with the new improved pension deal they'll be beating the doors down, that and the 'comfortable' salary

'That leaves an 'average pot of about 70% between the two. I wouldn't say that was too bad'

Really? Is that how low your standards are?

'Well, as there are a proportion of SEN children (around the 10% mark) I would expect that'

Of course!! Blame the children!

Merci I do work in schools but despite my myriad talents I haven't inside knowledge on recruitment procedures.

Why do people not want the jobs?
Why are they not equipped for them?

Two very good questions.
Are you suggesting the money isn't good enough to attract people or that people of sufficient calibre are not available?

Also, the 3 year old article is nothing whatsoever to do with Gove - it was the Lib Dem David Laws who was speaking, and who was describing the achievements of the previous 7 years (so 2001 - 2008).

Oh for goodness sake - teachers, I have no problem with you having that kind of job, or those kinds of perks. Good luck to you. But you can't then have a go at anyone trying to change how you do things.
As I see it, that's part of the deal. Yes you have lower pay than in the private sector but you are expected to perform in the same way, or at least get some kids through the system and into further education, with the pension as your reward. The trouble is - there seem to be a lot of teachers not performing to any of the same levels as their private sector colleagues. If they were, maths wouldnt' be a problem area in this country.
If you have maths as a huge problem area then we end up with a country where kids only do soft arts subjects and are only fit to work in theme park Britain and with no aspiration.. who are harder to teach.
What seems to happen is that any time someone suggests teachers look at things in a different way is that they instantly complain and tell us how hard their lives are. I understand most teachers are left leaners politically but surely they can understand that anyone with a different point of view isn't instantly a Facist menace? It seems like the teacher/government/parent deal got lost along the way.
Ken Robinson is right about how we teach our kids. Factory farming is not working but no-one seems willing to allow change. Politicians or teachers. I have no delusions that hothousing kids Chinese style will improve things, there has to be another way. Especially with maths.

Radiohelen - rather off the subject, but have you ever come across the Seven Lessons Taught in School by John Taylor Gatto. You might find it interesting: www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main/SevenLessonsTaughtInSchool

Moondog - totally agree with everything you say.

I didn't hear his speech, but I do think it would be ridiculous to expect everyone to follow an A level course. However, what would be useful would be to ensure that school leavers have a good grasp of how money works - bank accounts, mortgages, loans, credit cards etc.

My dss went to an excellent state school, but I have had to sit down and explain all of the above to them. One of them has an A grade A level maths, but didn't have much grasp of how N.I., income tax and pensions work.

Callisto - thanks for that - Mr Taylor Gatto is an interesting chap. I'll read more when I've got time.

It does make the case for a different sort of education really doesn't it.