FURIOUS with Gove's maths comments

[BusterGut]

The man is a total twat.
He is so out of touch, he must be living on Mars.

Bloody 'pre-algebra' - that's missing no. sums in Y2.
Bloody 'maths every day' - who doesn't?
Bloody teaching maths till 18 ????????? (Pity the sec sch maths teachers)

GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
(I've written to the slimy little toad. Anyone else going to join me?

[slug]

It's the removal or reduction of the data handling component that worries me (ex maths teacher). I think there is some solid thinking behind it by the Tories. If you fail to teach our youngsters to understand statistics, it is easier for the government to spout any nonense and have it believed by the population at large because they don't then have the basic skills to interpret it. You end up with this sort of nonsense.

One of my mantras with the reluctant maths students was "If you don't get to grips with this, you will spend the rest of your life being ripped off"

[slug]

OOps this sort of nonsense

[Gooseberrybushes]

Well I think he's got a point.

I think there has been a small emphasis change but basically there simply hasn't been enough emphasis on hammering in very very basic arithmetic. Apparently it doesn't matter about tables because you can "work it out" and that's more important. Apparently parents can teach them at home because there's no time for getting them into children in school. I mean, they are so much more important than data handling. Times tables and number bonds are the basis for SO MUCH primary maths - probability, algebra, fractions, ratio, large arithmetical calculations, early geometry etc etc. And they leave it to parents! No wonder so many children are put off - they can't do fractions and they don't realise it's because they don't know their tables, they just think they're rubbish and lose all their confidence.

Bollocks to data handling when they haven't got the basics. Bollocks to it.

[Gooseberrybushes]

No, he isn't a total twat. What a ridiculous thing to say.

[moondog]

Exactly Gooseberry.
Without the foundations, the rest-any higher level skills- means nothing and won't be fully grasped.
That this fact eludes so many is worrying.

[radiohelen]

Are you guys serious? Do they not teach kids their times tables at school? I have no idea what number bonds are..... off to Google and probably fall off my stool!

Is homeschooling really a viable option?

[slug]

Yes they do teach the times tables in schools. What they don't do any more is teach them by rote.

I was constantly shocked, when teaching in FE, the amount of students I had who didn't even grasp the basics. At 16 I had to teach them the times table. DD, however, is 9 and knows all her times tables up to 11. She's been taught them in school. For all of the "understanding the process" arugments, I think there is equal value in a bit of old fashioned rote learning as well occasionally.

[Feenie]

Fgs, tables are on the curriculum, from Key Stage 1.

Please try to stick to the facts before posting.

If your school does not teach times tables, then are not following the statutory NC - complain.

[Feenie]

What they don't do any more is teach them by rote.

Absolute rubbish. There is a requirement to learn them by heart, with rapid recall.

[Feenie]

And if you chuck data handling out of the curriculum, then you have to chuck out most of Science aswell, since it's part and parcel of readings in experiments.

[slug]

Am happy to hear that. I've been out of teaching for 4 years, and previous to that I had 16-19 year olds, so the time lag between my students being taught times tables and me getting them was fairly long. None of the students I taught had ever been taught the times tables by rote. They all worked it out (on their fingers) by counting up in 3s or 5s etc.

[Gooseberrybushes]

Yes I know they're on the curriculum. They don't make them learn them, or learn them early enough. I think things are changing now but certainly for ten-12 years they were just taught about multiplying and sent home with them to rehearse. Really, really helpful for the children without support at home. That's why they've no clue. It's not enough to be able to work it out and to understand.

[Gooseberrybushes]

Feenie - I am sticking to the facts and I do know what I'm talking about. But thanks so much for the advice.

[Gooseberrybushes]

Slug: it is very reassuring to hear about your child. I had a sense that there was an increased feeling of urgency over the last 2-3 years. However an entire primary generation was let down by let's-all-hold-hands-and-save-the-world-airy-fairy-don't-want-to-bore-the-children-now-do-we type education and the results show it. Whatever your child is getting, bring it on.

All children should have the opportunity of a firm basic education, not just those who have supportive parents.

[Gooseberrybushes]

And (isn't multiple posting great) a requirement for them to learn the tts with rapid recall doesn't mean that instilling them in the children is done in school. It can just as easily mean a worksheet in the bag and a note in the diary saying "pls learn 4x by friday". Job done. Or not, I think.

[Feenie]

How many schools are we talking about here? Because this is not common practice in the majority of schools.

[Gooseberrybushes]

that must be why primary school children are so well prepared for secondary and employers never moan about the maths skills of putative employees

[Gooseberrybushes]

Of course it's entirely possible that this current "lost generation" are the real victims of progressive "let's not bore them with anything didactic" ideals and that riding on the back of that failure, there have been changes which improve things for the next employee generation. I hear things have improved over the last two to three years. Hopefully, as slug describes, to the situation I recommend.

[Missingfriendsandsad]

Agree with this a little, but think focus should be on statistics, modelling and simulation maths - there is too little understanding of how useful good statistics are and how rubbish weak statistical tests are. Stats should and could be used all over the place in good decision-making, but still most decisions are made by people who don't have any idea at all about stats - even in technical environments management decisions are often made by 'feel'.

[Missingfriendsandsad]

Also agree with the Tories wanting to make sure public school kids have the advantage - make 94% of the population unaware about stats and maths and good European history and politics and that keeps the advantage with the 6% of the country who go to public schools...

[GrimmaTheNome]

And they were developed in the 19th century by Joule, Kelvin et al.
Newton died in 1727.

Yes, but they still work now and are pretty fundamental. He's right those should be taught and understood - by GCSE and A level science students which is I think what he was talking about not KS2

But he's a twit about maths. I'm impressed by the data handling my DD has done so far in science, IT and maths (after plenty of number bonds and learning tables by heart, its not some either/or) - could be because I'm a scientist and know its important in real life. He's wrong if he thinks you need calculus before A level - I'm 50 and didn't do it till then, that was soon enough. Maybe just a tiny bit of dy/dx to help in physics but honestly if you're not doing science A levels other things are a better use of GCSE time. Statistics definitely ought to be rigourously taught before A level (but back in the good old days I hardly did any before uni)

[BusterGut]

Some of you lot are as uninformed as Micahel Gove himself.

[ThisIsANiceCage]

Good to know the person micro-managing the curriculum has such a grasp of his subject, eh?

[GrimmaTheNome]

I deserved that. Brain out of gear, fingers in gear.

[Gooseberrybushes]

I think one of the problems is that a sense of priority and timing has gone to pot. Science and maths and rainforests and history projects and spelling and drawing are all seen as equally important all at the same time. To say that times tables should have priority over data handling at age five to six, say, is not to say that data handling is not ever useful at all. It is not to say that science is unimportant, or to abandon inquiry and statistics as tools. It is to say that a firm grasp of very basic subjects is necessary and important before moving onto those other areas of learning.

Ergo he is not a twit.