FURIOUS with Gove's maths comments

[BusterGut]

The man is a total twat.
He is so out of touch, he must be living on Mars.

Bloody 'pre-algebra' - that's missing no. sums in Y2.
Bloody 'maths every day' - who doesn't?
Bloody teaching maths till 18 ????????? (Pity the sec sch maths teachers)

GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
(I've written to the slimy little toad. Anyone else going to join me?

gillg57 Would that record of u-turns involve any data handling?

ishani Maybe the maths would have suddenly clicked if you'd left your dc at state school. Learning times tables is on the primary curriculum, so I can't understand how children are leaving primary school not knowing them.

From the KS2 NC (still statutory in state schools):
Recall multiplication facts to 10 x 10 and use them to derive quickly the corresponding division facts

Buster, your Pollyanna approach to life is alarming.
There is a fundamental difference between something being on a syllabus and it actually being done.

Most 'mission statements' look rather good. The real issue is making sure they happen in real life. Many years working in scores of different schools indicate ot me that many children lack basic skills and fall further and further behind as teachers rush through a curriculum in a superficial mannner (as they are encouraged to do-irrespective of whether a kid has got it or not.)

My experiences also indicate to me that if I want my kids to learn these things proprerly I had better do them myself.

So many kids leave school barely numerate. Why is this? Dh is a scientist who has to recruit A level students and graduates. Most of them are hopeless.

Maybe it would Buster but we'd given it 4 years and nada so I think they'd had enough opportunity to help the girls out and basically chose not to, we were informed there was a problem they were falling behind at parents evening and then asked what we were going to do about it. Never before could i understand peoples anger towards teachers until that night. Imagine if I called a customer and told them their systems that we are paid to maintain are failing, good luck let me know how you get on i've got another 29 contracts to be getting on with.
They'd do as we did take our business elsewhere and just in the nick of time.

Moondog
My 'Pollyanna' approach to life, as you so arrogantly put it (cheeky mare!), is based on my own experience in my school, conversations with teachers at other schools, and posts from teachers on Mumsnet.

All of the children in my Y2 class have fulfilled the requirements of the National Curriculum, and know their 2x, 5x and 10x table, with instant recall. Many of them know all tables to 10x10.

The National Curriculum is not a 'mission statement'. it is a statutory instrument until the new curriculum is introduced next year.

Earlier on, you cited a three-year old Telegraph article to illustrate the parlous state of KS1 maths in schools (10% below expected level, 70% at expected level, 20% above). This was based on national statistics, not on the results at particular schools. A level 2 at the end of KS1 (the 'expected' level, reached, or exceeded, by 90% of children) indicates that a child can cope with basic maths.

There you go Buster, My Year 3 has her 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 and 11's learnt this year. And she is the laziest bugger you'd hope to meet but they are obviously capable of more than the NC offers right now.

Year 2 sorry, that's top infants isn't it ?

Ishani There is such a thing as a home-school agreement. Parents spend time with their children in the evenings and at weekends.

Teachers maintain their customers (the children) during the day. They expect some kind of support from parents in the evenings or at weekends.

In the same way, you may have a contract with a business running some of your machinery. You deal with their problems as they arise. However, you would expect that company to maintain the machinery (night and day, seven days a week). If they don't the systems will fail and you will refuse to help them as they're not keeping their side of the bargain.

In the same way, teachers are dealing with children's problems as they arise, but we expect some 'maintenance' at home if we ask for it.

Maintenance at home I can live with, but I am not and do not claim to be a teacher and am particularly shit at maths myself, probably down to lack of parental support and inadequate teaching at some stage but anyway, what I cannot do is diagnose the problem and resolve it alone which was what was being asked of me.
I was told they are behind, right I said what shall we do about it, I'd get them a tutor she said, I wanted to slap her if I'm honest at that point but said ok for any particular aspect, well she said DD just doesn't get it does she, shame really because she's such a good reader. The subject was then changed.

I'm with you all the way Ishani.
Buster, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension, lovie.

Granted, that does sound a little bit annoying..... Maybe some support in what she expected you to do would have been more useful.

What have I misunderstood? Please share.

"Ishani There is such a thing as a home-school agreement. Parents spend time with their children in the evenings and at weekends. Teachers maintain their customers (the children) during the day. They expect some kind of support from parents in the evenings or at weekends".

Christ this pisses me off.

There are obviously so many parents who Do Not Help. Many were actually disadvantaged by the crap, crap state education they received themselves (as are many young teachers). So what do we do with these children? According to the NC and to Buster we sling them on the scrap heap.

These things should be done DURING THE DAY. They have six hours to instil solid, good, basic reading, writing and arithmetic and if that is not enough time to do so they should drop something else.

Parental support should not be depended on for the basics. Parental support is for extra sports, or extra maths, or advanced reading. NOT the basics.

Home school agreements are the work of the devil. Promise the world and deliver nothing, except from the parents who would have done it anyway.

Children need to be taught IN SCHOOL. That is what schools are for. They offer an opportunity to learn.

Drop history until Year 5, I don't care. Drop rainforest projects. I really don't care. But teach them to read, write and use arithmetic well. God.

Oh rainforest/ecology/save the environment crap should be first to go.

Leave the school reading, writing and doing sums.

Moondog, I'm still waiting to hear what I misunderstood.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to write about the rainforest, maybe some geography to learn where it is? maybe some maths about area and measurement? Reading, writing and arithmetic aren't disciplines set alone from everything else that goes on in the world!
And why shouldn't children be taught about how to care for the planet they live on ffs?

Gooseberry I really don't see why parents shouldn't be asked to help their children with specific problems they have, to hear them read and to chant a few times tables.

Buster because a lot of them won't - the majority, in some schools - and if the curriculum depends on that help the children will fail.

That's why, I think it's really obvious. Like, duh. I'm amazed that other people find it so hard to see.

"Perhaps it would be a good idea to write about the rainforest, maybe some geography to learn where it is? maybe some maths about area and measurement? Reading, writing and arithmetic aren't disciplines set alone from everything else that goes on in the world! And why shouldn't children be taught about how to care for the planet they live on ffs?"

oh ffs what rot

It simplify confirms everything we know eh Gooeberry, when people come out with drivel like this?
Talk about digging yourself in....

So what do you suggest they write about in our daily literacy lessons, if you're so clever?

Of course you have to relate the literacy and numeracy curriculum to RL. And of course our children have to be taught about things that are happening in the world. They are our legacy.

Moondog, please please tell me what I failed to understand. I'm starting to think you have made a false accusation, heaven forbid.

Did you ever try filling a bucket with a hole in it, Buster?
That's what 'engaging' (that's probably the sort of term people like you use isn't it?) with your regarding your reading comprehension issues would be like.

Pointless.

The thing is where it all seems to have gone wrong is the school wants to do all the fun stuff, trips out, dressing up, activity day for charity yes please. Getting down to learning anything useful they whip out the home school agreement and expect you to pay for a tutor and spend the 5 precious hours they have a day at home in tears with you trying to explain the new methods you don't understand yourself until eventually you give up and either thinkm anything the teacher can't teach them they don't need - know plenty of parents taking that tact - or you have no quality if family life.

Sorry, I don't understand the comprehension issues I have. Please 'engage' with me. If it was about that newspaper article, I have re-read it, and I believe I read it correctly.

'Did you ever try filling a bucket with holes in it, Buster?'
Your point is?

You are, in fact showing your ignorance about how to 'engage' small children. (You're so right, it just slips off my tongue.)

Learning about sloths, rainforests, wolves (things that really interest them) can envelop non-fiction writing, traditional stories, creation stories, general knowledge about geography and history, along with all the 'skills' learning of adjectives, verbs, nouns, etc. Children are little people who love to find out things, and love to share what they find out. How else do you suggest we keep them interested?

I like doing fun stuff for a purpose (i.e. the purpose of learning).

I hate school trips, and we're only allowed one a year, as they're so expensive.

Ishani if you don't understand the methods your dc are telling you, why not ask the teacher?

It is your job to teach them. You cannot rely on parents. If you are unable to explain the method to the child in the time alloted then find a method they can understand and teach that. If there is no time to teach Russian, Chinese, Arabic and fifteen different ways of multiplying then don't. Find one that most can understand and even if they can't understand it, use it.

Whatever you're doing, it's not working. Blame the parents if you like. Punish the children or having feckless parents if you like.

Or wake up and smell the coffee. Just imagine that it might actually be worth educating the children despite the fecklessness or supportiveness of the parents, that it might be worth it for the children and it might be worth it for the whole of society.

Or just blame the parents.

Who on earth said it was a parent's job to teach the children. I know it's my job! I'm with them six hours a day, and it's what I'm paid to do.

Most schools are introducing calculation policies that omit many of the maths methods introduced by the numeracy strategy. This problem has been acknowledged by many schools. I agree that learning many methods didn't work (particularly for the children who find maths difficult), as they often don't realise that they're doing the same thing in a different way.

But I do think parents should read with the children and learn times tables (as I've said before - 15 mins 4 times a week), and be willing to take on board something suggested by the teacher is their dc is having a problem with it.