FURIOUS with Gove's maths comments

[BusterGut]

The man is a total twat.
He is so out of touch, he must be living on Mars.

Bloody 'pre-algebra' - that's missing no. sums in Y2.
Bloody 'maths every day' - who doesn't?
Bloody teaching maths till 18 ????????? (Pity the sec sch maths teachers)

GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
(I've written to the slimy little toad. Anyone else going to join me?

[BusterGut]

Well, go on.... do they do daily numeracy and literacy lessons? Set my mind at rest.

[moondog]

I think the issue is that teachers can indulge themselves in all sorts of pointless low effort activites and claim it is numeracy or literacy and it isn't.
So. buggering about with water for days on end is marketed as a lesson in volume. All that groovy 'discovery learning'. I can teach them this stuff in 15 minutes which, ironically enough leaves even more time to play and explore and do all that touchy felly stuff, only this time without some numpty hovering over thier heads with a bloody EYFS ticklist.

I do (unlike most parents) know exactly what my children do every day and I am not happy with it.

This is the book that caused me to examine (and find wanting) almost every thing I used to believe in and everything that most children have to tolerate-alongside my own research in the field.


Highly highly recommended. It blew my world apart. (Thank Christ.)

[Gooseberrybushes]

Sorry I did read on but was distracted by a visitor.

The apology for the OP is appreciated - although to be honest I wouldn't have complained at all - just disagreed with it - if I hadn't been accused and if various things hadn't been said.

"I think the issue is that teachers can indulge themselves in all sorts of pointless low effort activites and claim it is numeracy or literacy and it isn't."

yy

cripes yes the trust issue

I was so concerned about one of my children in one of the schools, that I offered to take him out of maths and take him to the library to teach him myself whenever they had a lesson. At this point the head of dept was brought to the office.

Have met a few heads of depts you won't be surprised to hear.

[Gooseberrybushes]

Another eg: after being refused permission to set up a reading rota, because the ESL parents might feel left out, and anyway parents aren't trained (well who do you think is teaching the children to read then? grr) - the next year I joined the farce of "guided" reading.

Five parents, five groups, one disruptive child in each group so as not to put them all together and create the group from hell, a slow reader in each group for, I assume, comprehensive type reasons, and so on and so forth. Five parents focussing not on reading but (on strict instruction) asking the facile questions provided about how the pupils thought the story child might feel when his skateboard park was turned into a shopping centre. Four children picking their noses and thinking about computer games when it wasn't their turn, bored by the slow reader and tutting and making fun, the disruptive child under the table, no child actually within earshot of the parent except those sitting directly next, half the time taken with the parent telling the children off for being distracted (well DUH), speaking too quietly, being mean to the other readers, interrupting the other readers, ignoring the other readers and talking about something else to their neighbour, flicking paper etc etc etc.

I'm sure this ticked a literacy box. I thought it a waste of five parents time. Five parents, an hour each? That's 300 minutes. That's ten minutes one on one reading per child but no, that wasn't on the curriculum and guided reading was.

[moondog]

'guided reading'

What complete shit and what a horridly familiar (to me) picture yuo paint.
But hey! A box is ticked and everyone is happy eh?

[Gooseberrybushes]

Another eg from pt conference: "My child can do long multiplication by method x and chunking is very difficult for him and destroying his confidence in maths."

Response: "I forbid you to allow him to use method x at home and you must discourage him from using it at any time until he has learned chunking."

[Gooseberrybushes]

I like the combination of circular tables with a teacher complaining that the children distract each other. This actually surprises them.

[BusterGut]

gooseberry Guided reading shouldn't be run like that. The children should be ability grouped, reading the level above their 'home reading' level. It should have an objective (e.g. taking care with expression, reading unfamiliar words, taking care with punctuation) and the leader should focus the session on that objective. It always gives a good opportunity to discuss vocab and other things about books.

As the children become more able, the children begin to read at their own pace and the leader of the session focusses on each child. I find this very difficult with the little ones.

Perhaps you need to suggest that your school has a calculation policy too. We have deleted chunking from ours as a complete waste of time.

[noblegiraffe]

Oh thank god someone in primary recognises that chunking is not the method they should be using for division. When they get to secondary we just get out the traditional bus stop method, ask who doesn't know how to do it, then teach it to them.

Chunking is no use when you want to divide decimals or get a decimal answer.

[noblegiraffe]

Primary teaching seems to be getting a bit of a bashing here so I will volunteer that secondary maths is embarrassing. With league tables and FFTs we teach to the (GCSE) test and play the system as much as we can, especially with modular and resits, in order to get as many children as possible the coveted C. Even ones that probably don't deserve it. We teach C grade kids the basics of A-A* grade abstract topics because they might pick up a couple of marks on the easy questions on that topic where they would miss out on a percentages question that you would expect a C grade candidate to have mastered.

Since the Intermediate tier was scrapped and the higher paper had to become accessible to a wider range of student, but hasn't increased in length. This means that the brightest students are having to answer very few A* questions that might actually challenge them. The paper that faces the top set is an embarrassment and doesn't prepare them for A-level. Because they are poorly prepared for A-level by not being properly challenged at GCSE, a lot struggle to make the transition, some give up early on, and some give up at AS in favour of less challenging subjects.

Even a decade ago when I was doing my maths degree, the university had introduced a new 4 year maths degree called the MMath. Ostensibly it was a masters, but it was clear that the extra year was not tacked onto the end of the course, but the beginning, where they had to make up for the fact that the maths knowledge of students who had done A-level was poorer than previously. I studied abroad, and it was clear from the lectures that the standards that were being taught to there where far higher than in the UK. It was embarrassing to be so rubbish at maths, but back in the UK I was actually pretty good.

The whole way we go about teaching maths seems to be wrong.

[Gooseberrybushes]

Unfortunately it is too late. I was ignored at the time and my two eldest children suffered the full on NC experimental crap that has done so much damage. Of course, whatever methodology is taught now is the "correct" one, just as chunking was, and any parents who point out problems with it will be ignored. Until it's binned.

My experiences were not unusual. Why do you think so many children have tutors? Why do the statistics show failure? It's not one class, one teacher, my children's teacher. Having a word with my children's teacher didn't even make a difference to my children's education, never mind the education of the failing thousands.

At least Gove has thought - cripes, this isn't working. What can we do?

Instead of - this is what we do and everything around it has to change to fit in with it

[Gooseberrybushes]

In fact it was my youngest one who particularly suffered from chunking, just a couple of years ago.

So perhaps you can see why, when the bleeding obvious has been ignored for so long at the expense of so many children, I am impatient with complacency often shown by the profession and the theorists.

Everything is not alright and hasn't been for some time. It is not the fault of feckless parents and it is not resolved by "having a word with the teacher".

But what's the point? The complacency train will chug on, full steam ahead, knowing what's best and blaming the parents.

[moondog]

What did you do with your kids to address the situation Gooseberry?

[Gooseberrybushes]

Tutored them myself Moon. Did OU maths and tutored them through 11 and 13 + to get them into private school. Tutored the eldest through GSCE.

[Gooseberrybushes]

I heard on Radio Four that the latest fad is not teaching in a formal way at all until Y3: just letting them run around, play and "conduct experiments with water" and all that stuff - and if they feel like doing a bit of reading or maths they bring the book to the teacher and ask.

Are they just assuming these children will do nothing all their lives and are trying to prepare them for that?

[Gooseberrybushes]

And Buster: re guiding reading shouldn't be this and should be that. Like Y6 children "should" be able to read at a certain level and Y3 children "should" know x many times tables.

I used to know a poem - "if should and could were must and will, and may and might were shall"

something like that - I can't remember it all. Anyway your posts remind me of it.

That's the problem - distance from reality. Home school agreements? Every parent reading every night? merrily chanting times tables in front of the fire? I'm sure it's all written down somewhere as a desirable. Fantasy.

[moondog]

'Every parent reading every night? merrily chanting times tables in front of the fire?'

I do. Not everyone is like me-or you, Gooseberry- though, and frankly, on many occasions, I'd rather be doing something else.I can't unfortunately. I'm on amber alert the whole time.

Yes, Gooseberry, that's the abominable 'Early Years Foundation Skills.' My child has a clipboard of 'tasks' he is meant to complete as and when he feels like it over the course of a week.

[moondog]

As Sickof, said on another thread.
What other species decides that its young learn best by using a laisser faire suck it and see method??

[Gooseberrybushes]

well quite.. it just keeps people in ignorance

yes I've done it, I would have done it anyway but I had to do it, cereal box flash cards the LOT - and the ones with parents that didn't? God knows, because they weren't getting it at school

and at "clipboard of tasks"

on second thoughts

[Gooseberrybushes]

clipboard of tasks

good God

[moondog]

I'm very partial to a clipboard and a checklist myself but I wouldn't trust many over 40s to complete them all on time and properly, let along a 6 year old.

[Gooseberrybushes]

the problem is, the children have to do this stuff, they're pathetically enthusiastic

so whereas we would be quite happy to ignore it all and spend the time on something useful - we're hamstrung by our children's desire to please the teacher and fit in with everyone else

[Gooseberrybushes]

I'd go with a flipchart and a pointer myself

[moondog]

[grovel]

One thought. My DS is 20 and at a Top Ten university reading Politics. He got an A* in iGCSE maths at 16. He can't even calculate percentages now.