Church of england schools - proposal to admit more non-cofE children.......

[Icoulddoitbetter]

here

I'm not religious, and my child is not yet of school age so it's not something I've needed to think about for mysef.

But, I know a family where the parents are athiests who attend their local church weekly, read lessons, had their daughters christened and wear crosses around thier necks, just to get their children into the local church school, and this I have a very big problem with. I have no problem with children being brought up in a faith but not when the parents teaching that belief themselves have no belief in it whatsoever, it jsut seems wrong!

So if this new proposal stops the need for such behaviour then great (and the very mean part of me is secretly hoping the children above above get bumped off the list to make room for the non-cofe children in the community, whochaven't faked Christianity for two years, sorry.....!)

You know I'm pretty sure that's true. You would have to go private or seek out a missionary school.

And GB?

Do you think most Hindu or Muslim kids get access to state faith schools here?

if so, you are so very wrong.

The communities have the opportunity to apply to start a state-funded school. A number have done so. Is that not enough? In my local CE schools, Moslems and other believers are offered places above atheists.

But no, I don't think they do have that access. Do you think all Christians have the opportunity to go to a CE school? Do you think all children with disabilities have their needs met? Do you think all psychologically challenged children have their needs met? Do you think all talented musicians, sports scholarship candidates, gifted mathematicians, have access to the education they need and want?

GB most indians I know did have a christian education in India - no big deal in a hindu country.

But back in the UK where I live I think it's grossly unfair that you either have a postcode battle or a relgious battle for schools - and in many cases both.

And this will increase.

I'd love to be a place where all kids had access to a decent education.

Gooseberry that was an odd response. I questioned your statement, and you throw that at me? how is it relevant?

And ha de ha de ha at teh stuff about disability given I have already mentioned I have two autistic children,. very funny not.

Don;t many hindu's consider jesus a deity anyway? Don't many embrace a universalistic Vivekananda-style attitude to faith? (hint: yes they do).

'But back in the UK where I live I think it's grossly unfair that you either have a postcode battle or a relgious battle for schools - and in many cases both.

And this will increase.

I'd love to be a place where all kids had access to a decent education.
'

Absolutely. Until all chidlren can access an appropriate quality education then faith and the rest is just an unnecessary frill. When there are kids with access to no schools after the aplces are allocated, SN kids with no provision, the size of the battle for mainatining faith provision astounds me.

Well in India there is still a massive overspill of brit education - more for that reason than any.

Peachy- my neighbour has a child about two years older than mine. Autistic (and forgive my ignorance I have no idea re. the spectrum) - our local school suggested he would benefit from far more than they could offer and helped the mum gain a place at a brilliant specialist school for her son (they've since moved so our dc's have very little contact) - but I'm fully aware of how lucky she is to have the best provision for her ds. Chuffed for her but aware that alot of people haven't got access to what her ds has.

I'm also lucky in that I live opposite the most oversubscribed primary in our LA - and so I had no sleepless nights about ds getting in. But I'm aware that we're in the catchment for no non-selective schools at secondary.

So no tears to date but lots of tears to come and I'm scrabbling around for money (when ds is still only 4) to see if I can afford private at secondary if need be.

Some friends of mine got no primary place until end of august and had to get their child to school via two tube lines and a bus with a toddler in tow and when mum was pregnant. Nightmare. Absolutely unfair when I just trot across the road and place my ds in a great place.

What percentage of our population does our education system actually serve?

I want ALL kids to developed - not just those than either happen to live in a an area with great schools or who can play the systems.

You asked if I thought those of other religions all had access to CE schools, which was an odd response to my comment, that Britain, as a Christian country, is unusually tolerant of other religions. I wasn't poking fun at your situation: just pointing out that not everyone has access to the education they want and need, including Christians.

Jesus is in most/many religions, in Hinduism he's one of the Gods and Islam one of the prophets. It doesn't mean Hindus are Christian. That takes more than believing in Jesus, believing he is a prophet or even believing he is a God.

I think the Indians you know possibly had a private education if they were taught in a Christian school?

"I want ALL kids to developed - not just those than either happen to live in a an area with great schools or who can play the systems."

This is a comment about provision, not faith education. Where faith education achieves better results, it is not because of resources or provision, but parental input and selection. Widening access will affect those results.

I don't posit this as an argument for maintaining faith schools, but as a series of facts.

Gooseberry - put it this way - my dm went to a british school in the african country in which she was born - it the was the local school and it happened to be british. Not so much about choices.

As far as I'm aware Jesis is not a god in hinduism.

However, in the UK we are sold 'choices' when in fact we are excluded.

British in what way? British and Christian? British curriculum? state funded?

I think you would struggle to find a state-funded British school now even in countries with a legacy of colonialism.

But, introducing colonialism is apt. It's the legacy of colonial guilt which informs our tolerance.

re Jesus/Hindu - I think he is, now, but they have about thirty million or something. But Hinduism being obviously more than 2000 years old he must be an add on.

Yes, so I don't think that Jesus is really a god in hinduism.

No idea about my mum's education - and introducing colonianism isn't apt for me in informating tolerance, as being a product of the colonised and the colonian in the UK makes me just, erm, british.

Mum - only schools where she was were british - so I guess it would be whatever was in britain (hers was scottish).

My df was recently living in an african country and his daughter went to a private british school aka the only private school in his village and where many of the kids went regardless of nationality - and I think it had a religious background but I remember my half sister mentioning god only once she was schooled in the UK a bit later.

Who cares - we're in the UK - we are not Kenya and we are not India - we are a nation where he have a NI to pay for public services and our publicly funded services are excluding many children on the basis of religion.

Not on in my view.

Thanks for aptronising basic lesson in faith to someone with a degree in world faiths Gooseberry.

Ahem.

There are very many gods in Hinduism and some people worship Jesus, absoluely- we had some lovely little Jesus icons at uni. But there isn;t an exhaustive gods list after all- take Santosi Ma, they made a film about a fictional goddess in the sixties and now she's one of the most popular personal goddesses in the village tradition. But you see there are two types of Hinduism as far as academia goes; village tradition which is probably the most common and pure bred brahmanical tradition whcih is really a monotheistic faith with an evolved polytheistic imagery- none of teh gods are stand alones, eehy are simply aspects of the divine represented in forms. It's quite possible for any inspirational figure to be worshipped as part of that when you think about it, becuase the faith holds firm that there is that spark of the divine / atman in each person so everyone is a piece of the divine themselves. And then you get the whole multi-faith system, the 'many paths to god' belief, which is one I subscribe to (Quaker) and in which Vivekananda (recommend him to any reader from any faith, or indeed on faith- his sense of inclusiveness is wonderful) was a founding light.

That's not the point of the thread though is it so sorry for wandering off track.

I wasn't trying to be patronising why would I mind if you know more than me about it?

"we are a nation where we have a NI to pay for public services and our publicly funded services are excluding many children on the basis of religion."

Sums it up pretty succinctly for me.

In South Africa you went to your local primary, which fed into your local High School, no worry for parents or pupils about where you would end up, you stayed with your friends, quick and simple.

I'm endlessly amazed at how complicated the system is here, and how many children have to be transported for miles to school when there's a perfectly good school within walking distance. WTF?!?!?!

Gooseberrybushes why do you keep bringing up your ' backdoor social selection drives up standards' argument (for those lucky enough to have parents who fulfill the criteria) if it has no relevance to the argument for or against religious selection criteria for state schools.

The point is it is unjust. What is the point of these other series of facts.

Mistyvalley and Zepherine -I agree it would be recognised as ridiculous if other state services desriminated in this way. Many hospitals (St Thomas's etc..) and universities (oxbridge colleges..) started off as religious foundations, there are still Catholic hospitals in the NHS but it would be immoral for they to prioritise patients by religion.

It is telling I think that religious private schools don't go through all this business of requiring parental bums on seats for two years before entrance. If you can pass the exams, afford the fees and are happy to go along with the ethos you are in. Yet when someone else is paying the bills religions use their school entrance requirements as a lever to get more people to profess faith.

I do find it odd that a faith- my faith- that values truth and honesty 9as do most, if not all, I know that) encourages this system when hypocrites DO use it. My atheist sister has taken my nephew to Church since he was 2, has the Church school place, and was annoyed that he seemed to beleive in Moses.

Er yes dear; what exactly did you expect?

To be honest Himalaya it only needs stating once.

If you want access to faith schools because of their higher standards you should be aware that widening access to 90 will negatively affect those standards.

People keep arguing with me about it though. So it's just gone on and on.

It's only relevant because that is often a reason for people disliking faith selection. You can't pretend it isn't. Just as I don't pretend that there aren't people who object solely on the grounds that they don't want their child to have a faith education.

"If you want access to faith schools because of their higher standards..."

We don't. Nobody has said they do. We just don't want discrimination. I am amazed that this should be such a hard concept to understand.

Some people do. Giveitago, for example, wants everyone to have the same access to good schooling as people of faith. Which is the same thing really. There's no difference in provision or resources. The results come from the selection.

I'm astounded you think no one wants access to these schools because they are often the best local school. Not everyone is the same as you. I am happy to accept that not everyone is of this line of thought: but for you to insist that no one is of this line of thought is very odd.

Discrimination implies that you are being denied access for an unfair reason.
If it's nothing to do with selection and results, this would only apply in areas where there is no non-faith local school. If there is a local non-faith school or multiple non faith schools then access is not denied.

Again, again, again.

I repeat it because there is a lot of woolly thinking here.

oddly the higher standards are more to do with the fact that many non faith people believe the hype and jump through hoops to get there. It's probably those parents' input that add to the aith schools' stats results.

Little to do with the faith - far more to do with the non faithful input.

What a divisive situation we're in.

Annie - when I was at school it was very much the case you went to your local primary which fed into the local secondary except for the fact we had grammars (but not with the hysteria we have about them now).

Faith is a very odd criteria for selection.

Giveit: well yes this is entirely my point. I said several years ago that apparently if it weren't for selection, the performance of faith schools would actually be five per cent below average, because of the time devoted to faith activities. It's selection - in effect, self-selection - which makes the difference.

Thankyou Zepherine! I was just about to say the same.

I mean, several years ago on this thread ie we seem to have been at this for days.