Church of england schools - proposal to admit more non-cofE children.......

[Icoulddoitbetter]

here

I'm not religious, and my child is not yet of school age so it's not something I've needed to think about for mysef.

But, I know a family where the parents are athiests who attend their local church weekly, read lessons, had their daughters christened and wear crosses around thier necks, just to get their children into the local church school, and this I have a very big problem with. I have no problem with children being brought up in a faith but not when the parents teaching that belief themselves have no belief in it whatsoever, it jsut seems wrong!

So if this new proposal stops the need for such behaviour then great (and the very mean part of me is secretly hoping the children above above get bumped off the list to make room for the non-cofe children in the community, whochaven't faked Christianity for two years, sorry.....!)

to be fair where I live most people do get the school of choice so i agree it depends on area as i too would be angry if a faith school was may only option and i was further down an admissions list. However i'm not sure i would want my child going to a faith school if i was not religious in any way. Anyone who has a child in a faith school will tell you the school drums it down their neck and requires lots of parental involvement and support. Even if you lie to get your child in, that will become difficult to sustain on the playground, at PTAs etc. If i was not planning on supporting my child in a faith school i would be prepared to travel for another school. Likewise , because i want my child in a catholic school i travel 4 miles whereas i have a CofE school next door but one to my house!

Kitkat, it is very common practice where I live for lapsed Catholics to unlapse when they start looking into school options. And there is a wide range of beliefs between being "not religious in any way" and being prepared to make the very specific baptismal vows required for entry into many RC schools.

It's not extraordinary: in terms of schooling it's the current status. I'm very open-minded about faith schools, and undecided about primary selection, though more likely to see the arguments in favour of selection in education generally.

It certainly is the current status for a proportion of faith schools. It is nevertheless quite extraordinary in terms of access to a public service.

I'm worried about ds for secondary as we don't live in the catchment area for any non selective school.

The ones around our way are faith schools. That puts ds at a disadvatage.

He has a catholic background but also a cofe one and a hindu one. And because he's so multicultural I was adamant that he should find his own way. A decision I still stand by but he certainly will be discriminated against.

I was hoping that if he decided he liked christianity he would be baptised a catholic (as his df and his lot would insist) but I'vebeen told by a teacher that if he;s not baptised at a very young age then just forget any chance of him getting into a catholic school. How bizzare.

Apparently this cheating the system thing happens in big cities and the cofe case in rural areas the schools take in the entire catchment anyhow.

The thought of my child of not being able to access x percent of schools that are partly funded by the state and go along on religous discrimination does worry me.

For the record I'd rather my ds not go to a religious school but what the heck do you do when that's the only option in your area apart from the country's best grammar school which has an intake of only one class per year and the entire london population are going for it. He's fucked.

Not really, not when their origins lie with the church, as is the case with many (most?) of the old Christian schools. I'm not saying that's a justification, but that's what is behind it.

The fact that newer schools, madrasas etc have to be allowed the same discrimination under equalities legislation might make it seem extraordinary.

population is going for it, in fact.

The drive and ambition stuff lies with the parents.

i may be missing the point but if any of your children are unable to get into faith schools, would you not consider them joining a faith? My SIL did this, she managed to get her son in a catholic school many years ago (he is CofE but not practising). Anyway since then the numbers applying have increased lots so her 2 other children who are CofE have just changed to catholics - both under 5 and it was no problem at all. When i made my DD catholic it was really easy despite neither of our families being catholic originally. If you live in an area where your only schools are faith schools i'm not sure i understand why this isn't considered before they are due to start school? I know not everyone wants to get their child into a faith but if your not of any specific opinion on religion, i can't understand why you do not consider it for your school choice?

Kitkat - assuming you're serious, that idea is just so outrageously wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin, sorry.

Kitkat - why on earth would I consider getting ds to join one faith when we are a multifaith family. The entire point is that he should be able to gain from the entire lot and learn and grow into a person that can cope with the complexities of our modern global society. I was rather thinking he could decide if he wanted to be baptised etc and then do it and if we had no alternative then at least he could apply to his local catholic school in the full knowlege he was a proper catholic. But not so, according the catholic rules. I remember going for a coffee with the mums of ds's primary school - I was the only briton born and bread and they were very confused about the UK education system and were looking to me. I had to admit that I really didn't get it either.

My point is why isn't there non selectve school in my area? I don't see the big fuss about religious schools but he has zero school that he can just apply to and get in. That's nuts.

Bred not bread.

i don't see why? Lots of non religious people baptise their kids according to school choice - its nothing new. I'm not talking about converting kids to specific religions etc and i understand if you are pro-one religion that it sounds crazy but otherwise i really don't see the big deal! Lots of people (although obviously not all) baptise their kids because its what is expected when a child gets to a certain age - not for personal religious reasons. In cases like this where people are not bothered about which church their child goes to, why not consider which will benefit your child long term? I just don't get it - i see friends of mine every year who are panicking for 12 months trying to get into a catholic school and are in no way religious - then they baptise their kids CofE because thats what all their other family did - sorry but that makes no sense

Giveitago - sympathies - the system is so mad it's hard to believe it actually exists, really.

You only have to apply the idea to the users of any other publicly funded service such as NHS, libraries, bin collection etc, to see how weird it is.

Yes it's a historical anomaly from the days when the churches owned and ran the schools, but it's time it was sorted out, it really is.

giveitago - i fully understand in your situation and its bad that there is no local school he can go to - thats an issue LEAs should address as all kids should have access to a school.

Who said he can't get into a catholic school if baptised older? Do you mean you would like him to go a catholic high school before he chooses to be catholic or that if he became catholic now then they wouldn't admit him as he wasn't very young? Near me we only have 2 high schools - the CofE (of which my child is bottom of list as catholic) and thats 1.5 miles away and the catholic one which is 3.5 miles away - pretty much whichever religion (or non) someone has to travel in our area, so not as one way as where you live.

Kitkat - I would be very bothered indeed if I had to get my child baptised just so they could go to a local school. I would be especially bothered if it was, say Catholic, when my family were all christened CofE, or vice versa.

It is a big deal, it's hugely intrusive, and it's unfair and discriminatory.

fair enough i do get what you're saying but then you have to consider the type of education they get at a catholic school - for example - i went to CofE primary and catholic high school and they are totally different! If you are against one particular type - why would you want them to be educated there? If its a case of it being the only local school then i think its strange that you are prepared to then sacrifice your feelings for ease? Also it also works the other way round in terms of distance to school as there is no catholic primary school near me so my DD travels 4 miles to get to primary whereas i have 6 CofE in my area - and i'm bottom of everyone of their criteria as they are over subscribed and take CofE first.

Misty - I agree - it is a big deal.

I worry about a school system (or in our case, systems) that requires water over heads, circumisions etc in order for a child to attend school.

Particularly in a country that it deemed pretty secular in public life.

I remember someone telling me that Israel has a multi layered school system depending on whether you are religious/non religious jew or religious/non religious arab. I really didn't get it - but guess what, we appear to have the same system in the UK.

I'm not religious myself but I have enough respect not to want any child of mine to have to go though anything just for the sake of the offchance of getting into a school. Doesn't that just take the piss out of religion and don't these faith groups care that they are getting bums on seats and certificates of 'membership' just so they can say they are a popular religion.

Goodness.

To me - my community means the people ds lives around - not a particular group of people or values.

Well what type of education do they get at a catholic school?

i don't refer to standard of education - i meant in terms of emphasis on religion - i.e. its much more in your face in a catholic school so it may not be for everyones taste. My DD talks about jesus all the time and she's only been there 8 months! - not something i think everyone would like if not religious - whereas CofE generally are more non specific and educate on lots of different religions/angles of beliefs - catholic schools generally are very biased and not everyone will like that

Well, I'm not religious and wouldn't want my DC to attend a faith school where religion is taught as fact. Neither do I think children should be segregated by religion for their day to day education, even if their parents are religious, so that is going to inform all my opinions on the matter.

As I said earlier, it is impractical and uneconomical to have to bus / drive children for miles just so they can attend the school of the 'right' religion. Even madder when the parents aren't even doing it for religious reasons, just out of lack of choice because they have been discriminated against by their more local schools.

Only read a few posts so may be off-topic by now but....

I'm always amazed at the cries of "if you don't like faith schools don't send your child to one". They must live in a very different part of the country to me, because around here there simply aren't any non-faith schools.

Our village primary is CofE, but luckily it sees itself as the village school first and foremost and no local child has ever not got a place. But I know some CofE primaries, when it's the village school, who discriminate against local children who don't go to church.

I think it's absolute madness that any child should have to go to any school but the one that's closest to their home. And when they're being denied that because of religion, I get so angry I don't know what to do with myself.

So, in a nutshell, I think only good can some of this new ruling.

Why education is still so strongly linked to religion when the country is otherwise to secular is still astounding to me.

i agree with you but given many wouldn't like the angle of faith schools - even if you were higher up the criteria would you let them attend a faith school ? It seems many who are against the admission criteria of faith schools would also be against the religious influence set by them which is why i dont understand why you would want to send a child there?

or is the arguement more that religion is taught/based within education at all?

Annie and I don't think it's a case of it still being strongly linked - I think it's increasingly linked and that's what worries me so much.

If we are going to be divided what does it say for our so called multicultural culture. Very worrying. It wouldn't suit me today and it certainly wouldn't do my ds any favours.

Honestly way back when I went to my local primary and as we had grammars in our area you took the 11+ and you either got into a grammar and if you didn't you had a choice of other local schools. Now you're lucky if you can get into any school.
This is not the education of a developed country with a 'liberal' democracy.

We should be ashamed.

Britain is quite generous in it's equality of "unfairness". I think if you wanted a Christian education in a Moslem or Hindu country, you would not find it paid for by the government. I suppose I ought to check that before writing it down.