Church of england schools - proposal to admit more non-cofE children.......

[Icoulddoitbetter]

here

I'm not religious, and my child is not yet of school age so it's not something I've needed to think about for mysef.

But, I know a family where the parents are athiests who attend their local church weekly, read lessons, had their daughters christened and wear crosses around thier necks, just to get their children into the local church school, and this I have a very big problem with. I have no problem with children being brought up in a faith but not when the parents teaching that belief themselves have no belief in it whatsoever, it jsut seems wrong!

So if this new proposal stops the need for such behaviour then great (and the very mean part of me is secretly hoping the children above above get bumped off the list to make room for the non-cofe children in the community, whochaven't faked Christianity for two years, sorry.....!)

Did somebody say that? Do tell me who.

Faith selection gives places to people with the greatest drive, ambition, foresight etc etc.

Would you like me to twist your words into what that statement reads to a few others on this thread and myself or would you like to twist them for yourself?

"So believing in a God actually iincreases drive and ambition"

Sure. But who said the above? Apart from teacups.

She is twisting my words to imply that I said the above. Gawd knows why. Suits her point of view perhaps.

"I'm sure it's completely unworkable, but faith schools should be in addition to good quality schools in an area so there is a real choice."

That's the problem - it is unworkable and uneconomic to give people a TRUE choice between faith / non-faith schools in the state school system without all sorts of other factors coming into play.

Hence the ridiculous and skewed system we have now.

Am I being overly cynical in thinking that this move on the part of the CoE would have nothing to do with concern over parents conscience and freedom of religion (they have been quite happy to go along with the people who find religion when their child is 3, as long as it puts bums on seats)?

I think it has everything to do with their own concern that the number of faith schools will become indefensible as more and more cultural Christians are willing to come out as non-believers (and this is likely to be reflected on the census results) and as the government has cut funding for transport operations bussing kids in to faith schools.

I do think it's a good thing if state services don't discriminate, but I wonder if they are trying to make a virtue out of a necessity.

Not cynical at all Himalaya.

I would guess that in the past the system has been propped up by people feeling too guilty about being publicly 'non-Christian' to complain, in case it makes them appear 'anti-Christian' and therefore subject to disapproval and discrimination.

So what did you mean exactly gooseberry? Because no one seems to be able to interpret your words in the way you meant them

gooseberry - I was commenting on a few posts, not yours.
People were talking about children being selected to faith schools having more drive and ambition.

Am amazed by the negative reactions to his comments on here. The bishop is quite right. It is an utter disgrace that state funded schools openly discriminate on the grounds of religion. Now if only the Catholics would follow suit...

Dream on Zephirine. Catholics pay taxes too remember...

gooseberry - I was commenting on a few posts, not yours.
People were talking about children being selected to faith schools having more drive and ambition.

Yes - that's me. I didn't say it had anything to do with religion. In fact I thought the complaint was that people without religion attend church in order to gain access. This does not just signal hypocrisy maybe not even that it signals foresight, planning, ambition and drive.

Who said religious people had more drive? Not me. Who said all non religious people had no drive? Not me.

How hard is it?

There is a complaint that people who do not go to church will start attending church in order to access a good school. What allows them to make this choie? Foresight and research. What drives them to do this? Ambition. What enables them to do this to the degree required? Organisation and discipline.

Is it really so hard, Christine?

Gwendoline, what is your point. Do Catholics pay more taxes than anyone else? I really can't see why they should have priority for state school places otherwise.

I'm not saying the bishop's comments are 'wrong' at all - they seem to mark a welcome change in attitude and much more in tune with what a Christian ethos should be about, imo, if you are a believing Christian.

It's just that this new stance seems a long time in coming, and as Himalaya said, the established church has appeared to be all too happy to be in a position of power as far as state school admissions go as it serves a purpose in putting bums on pews.

You may be right, misty and it certainly has been a long time coming. He struck me as genuinely concerned that the C of E should do the right thing though.

Maybe he personally is genuinely concerned, he certainly sounds genuine. (Not sure how much support he will get from the CofE in general, or other religious bodies.)

But I do think if the church is going to survive in this day and age it needs to stop making enemies by exercising discriminative practices wrt school admissions and recruitment - it's such an emotive subject for the people who it affects.

Yes, agree with all of that

I haven't read all of the other posts but I wanted to point out that not all CofE schools are selective. All the schools where I live are either Catholic or non selective CofE school. As a result my DC go to a nonselective CofE school where a persons religious ideas have no bearing on whether a child gets a place. The problem with this is that those of us who are either non religious or have a different religion have to actively tell the school that our children will not be attending church services and will be coming out of assemblies for the highly religious part of them.

You can't avoid it even at non-faith schools, Daisy. At dd's community school (where pupils include a very high number of Muslims and other non-Christians) they had a special Easter assembly at the end of this term in which they were told "it makes Jesus sad when you're greedy". The issue of religious instruction in schools is of course related, but quite distinct from the issue of admissions policies.

It's not that standards will fall if faith schools opened up, it's that results might. Standards and results aren't the same thing. Oversubcribrd faith schools discriminate against traveller families, recent immigrants, chaotic families... Some children from these groups may be harder to teach. The mark of a school with high standards is what they do with these children not what they do with some well informed poss tutored kids.
My kids' school has disproportionate numbers of above groups because it's known as being inclusive. Ditto sn. It does brilliantly with all kids but it makes angry for someone to judge it as having poorer 'standards' than a covertly selective school just because it gets marginally (and it is v marginal) stats.

It doesn't discriminate against them: it has requirements of the parents which the parents are unable to fulfil.

The solution to those problems is not abolishing faith schools, or abolishing selection. Those are problems that shouldn't be resolved at the cost of other children. Solving them has nothing to do with religion.

"It doesn't discriminate against them: it has requirements of the parents which the parents are unable to fulfil."

- how is that not discrimination?

If an employer has a requirement that their employees have penises then it's going to be hard for around half the population to meet their requirements, isn't it?

It's not a choice whether to have a willy or not.

It's not a choice to be born into a different religion to that of your local state faith school though, is it?

Being a GENUINELY believing Christian and committed churchgoer isn't really a choice either, is it? You either are or you aren't, though you can of course attempt to fake it.

my dd1 went to a Cof E primary school. Many parents of classmates were not Cof E but started attending church and sunday school well before admission time and so managed to get their children into the school. Needless to say they all stopped going wihin the reception year.

I think they should go the other way and forbid all applications unless the parents can prove beyond doubt that they are from the correct religion.

Those areas would then be forced to supply proper schools for their residents.