Convicted prisoners to get vote

[2shoes]

not sure what I think of this
should they be allowed to vote ??

Begonyabampot - what is the effect of allowing tv's on offending rates?

Continuing to agre with Pan and Coalition, and to really feel that the issue of whether prison is enough of a punishment is still a conplete distraction from the issue of whether prisoners should get the vote. Our feelings about whether loss of liberty alone is enough of a punishment is entirely irrelevant to the debate over what democracy is, what it means, how we enact it.

Would still say:

1. Prisoners haven't opted out of society, they participate in it in a number of ways.
2. Prisoners haven't all taken away someone else's rights, that's just nonsense, even if they have, it doesn't affect point 3 below.
3. In a democracy, we don't get to choose who gets the vote depending on how we feel about them or what they have done, everybody does, not just the people who we like, those we think are deserving of it, etc.

D

the argument that criminals have taken other people's human rights is based on a complete misunderstanding of what human rights are. People seem to think they are a vague wishy washy idea about nice/moral/correct things that should happen. they're not. they are specific legal rights contained in specific international treaties. There are no human rights not to be attacked, killed or not to have your property taken. There are specific human rights to have the protection of the state from such things. If the state fails to take reasonable action to protect you and to provide you with redress then the STATE has violated your human rights. not the person who did the attacking/killing/theft. [I have largely abstained from the substance of this thread, only interjecting with points of info; on the whole I agree with just about everything Deliaski has said. which she's said very eloquently]

And also Pan has been v, informative about:

1. the discrininatory effects and
2. the constitutional effects

of continuing to deny the vote to prisoners.

I think Pan is my favourite poster on MN. Due to his insights and modesty.

I like TCNY better.

You like TCNY Blair?

THINGS.

Can only get BETTER.

Can only get BETTER.

Now I found you.

My partner was in prison and does not think that prisoners should be allowed to vote. He believes he was in prison and waived his rights to "participate" in normal society.

AlpinePony - Did not being able to vote make him less likely to offend? Or was it really the least of his problems?

He spent every day chastising himself for being such a dick and just crossing off the days. "Voting" was the last thing on his mind.

TNCY

TV? I was surprised as she was saying how cushy our prisons are with TV in their cells etc. I argued this, though didn't realise it is a fairly new development. I don't want prisoners to rot away doing 'nothing' or on a chain gang with gruel and water, facing being beat up or raped with no protection. But, I can't see much deterrent if prisoners are just allowed to sit in their cells watching telly ( would now really like to know what does happen/go on in prisons as I'm obviously way out of date!) - isn't this what many young adults would quite happily do (especially those with poor aspirations and little wider knowledge of the world)- sit watch telly, chat with friends, not worry about being fed and finding a bed? Don't see that much deterrent. What I would like to see in prison is education really pushed and some sort of training or work ethic available (I'm not anti rehabilitation at all), not just keep them quiet with a telly.

I also disagree with giving the vote to someone who has opted out of society by their actions. Imagine a local election being swung by those who have made many people in that community miserable? I'd rather not.

AlpinePony - Exactly.

I think that as removing the vote from prisoners is an entrirely neutral thing for most prisoners it serves no purpose in terms of punishment or rehabilitation. So there is no utilitarian argument for them not voting.

On the other hand preventing them from voting dilutes the concept of universal suffrage.

So on balance, give them the vote, and then get on with fixing the parts of the criminal justice system that actually make a difference.

Well we did actually discuss it last night and whilst it was "irrelevant" for him at the time, he feels he didn't deserve it because he was being punished - and part of that punishment was that he didn't get a job/relationship/vote/"rights".

He did have a TV in his room though!