Convicted prisoners to get vote

[2shoes]

not sure what I think of this
should they be allowed to vote ??

Unless you're being imprisoned for the rest of your natural life I think that you should be as connected with society as possible.

All the evidence indicates that this is a major factor in improving recidivism.

I think the right to vote is part of that.

I am in two minds about this one. On the whole, I don't think prison is to remove them from society completely. It is to take away liberty for a set period of time. IT could be argued that the right to vote is part of that liberty, and that they should be removed from society and all its rights and responsibilities completely, but I don't think that has a sensible endpoint.

Prisoners are allowed to write and receive mail and visitors, they have access to healthcare, they are allowed to read newspapers and watch television, study a course, hey even write and publish a book if they want, and send money into/out of prison for family etc. if they need to. So they're not being completly removed from society, that doesn't seem to (currently) be the function of prisons, so that being the case, I do think they should have the right to vote. For some, it might be the start of re-engaging with life on the right side of the law. I suspect that voter participation amongst the prison population is likely to be low, as they are on the whole a fairly disenfranchised group.

The thing is with democracy is that by definition it has to apply to everybody.

And I'm not a liberal lefty BTW.

D

I think it's ALMOST as important as fox hunting.

2shoes - according to that article prisoners on remand are already permitted to vote.

I am more worried about the fact that Europe can foist this upon us. The rules should be determined by our elected representatives in the UK. We should be deciding as a nation what is acceptable.

We decided as a nation, via our elected representatives, to accept the rulings of the European Court Of Human Rights.

no they should not be allowed !!

actually it's not just a European right -it's an International Human Right

\link{http://www.humanrightsadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/The-Right-to-Vote-A-Basic-Human-Right-In-Need-of-Protection.pdf\page 4}

"Article 25 of the ICCPR requires that ?every citizen? be given the right to vote. General Comment 25 to the ICCPR clarifies that ?[i]f conviction for an offence is a basis for suspending the right to vote, the period of such suspension should be proportionate to the offence and the sentence.?6)

which is interesting. As is the bit about South Africa

That's the problem chil, so many of us don't feel we had a say in the decision. I'm not completely anti europe but there are some things nations should be able to decide for themselves.

At the end of the day is prision really suppose to punish people or contain them for the good of everyone and change the way they the criminals think? Why not give them sky tv and such they are still human after all. Prision as a punishment isnt the point the point is to contain dangerous and criminal people so they cannot reoffend. But I would have a problem if all inmates started voting for shorter sentences etc but lets get it in view there is only 70k prisioners.

I'd blame the ICCPR/UN before you blame Europe boiledegg - I believe they got their significantly earlier on declaring the right to vote.......

Lee2010 you're right, when I used to work in a prison, I was told right at the very start, that people are sent to prison as their punishment, not for their punishment.

I also worry that if we impose limits and caveats on the fundamental democratic principle that every citizen has the right to vote, it's not a good precedent. I know the precedent has been set already, in that prisoners can't vote at the moment, but on the whole, whatever your politics, I am uncomfortable with the notion that some sections of society are excluded from voting, based on the opinion of some other sections of society. I think that history on the whole has demonstrated that that way lies madness.

I think I'm uncomfortable with it because it is based on somebody's notion of who 'deserves' the right to vote, and when you think about it, there are lots of people or groups of people who may be more or less deserving than others, e.g. why should you get a vote if you don't pay any tax (just being devil's advocate here, that isn't my opinion!). The point is that voting isn't about who deserves a say, it is a democratic process and democratic means every citizen, not just those felt to be deserving by somebody else (or even by a vocal majority).

D

Well said Deliaskis.

I think they should get the vote.

"europe" (whatever that's meant to mean) can't foist this on us. the UK, of its own free will, ratified the European Convention on Human Rights (it also helped write it).in doing so the UK agreed to the establishment of the European Court of Human Rights, which has jurisdiction over the rights contained in the Convention and the ability to hear complaints of violations of those rights. It's all there, in writing, in the Convention, that the UK CHOSE to ratify.

also, another point of information, the ECHR predates the ICCPR. the former informed much of the latter.

In the article, David Green of Civitas says

"...In the longer term, parliament should pass a law making the decisions of the British Parliament superior to any rulings of the European Court."

I thought it was europe enforcing this and we were having to bow to the European court?

I hope that there will be proper polling stations set up in the prisons, rather than giving them postal votes - far too open to fraud I fear, then distribute the votes equally throughout the country (rather than them all being concentrated in one constituency where the institution is).
People serving long sentences could get involved with the organisation too, could be very constructive.

there isn't an administrative entity called "europe". this is the European Court of Human Rights. it isn't part of the EU, EC or anything else. As I said, the UK, signed a convention according to which it agreed to the establishment of the court and to be bound by it.

the relationship between international law and domestic law is complicated. but, in essense, if it wanted to, in theory,the UK could withdraw from the treaty but the political ramifications would be enormous. the ECHR, and the international equivalents, were created in the wake of ww2 to protect the rights of people (all people) to liberty, freedom of expression and much more. It may have its faults but it's just not politically feasible to walk away from it.

yes well said Delia - and actually a valid point about the "deserving" - once upon a time the "common man" wasn't deemed deserving enough of a vote, nor women, etc.

Is someone who has a committed a crime does this mean that they aren't human? Crimes come in all shapes and sizes, not just violent crime.

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11646321\this for an example} yes her art is crap imo he committed a crime and conned people. But politicians frequently con the public I don't think he should lose the right to vote while in prison.

hatwoman - you are correct - I thought that 1966 for the ICCPR was going to be earlier than the ECHR

'tis still in the ICCPR though

Might I add to my above comments that while I dont think the EU that I do support should be dictating the laws of this nation they should be given the right to vote under british law.

I believe that no prisoners should get the right to vote whilst in jail! I think they should have no TVs, no music,no recreation and be fed on bread and water!

Why Caire whats the logic behind that?

Claire527 - Good call Claire! I want all prisoners to be released instituionalised and in a fragile mental state. I reckon this is the best way to reduce offending.

I guess because "that'l teach 'em"

(might even finish off the elderly non council tax paying ones as well thus reducing costs even further by not having to care for them when they come out )

Claire, do you think that'd be a suitable rehabilitation process for them then? The idea of prison is to prevent the convict from recommitting any offences. As we have learnt from years of experience, treating prisoners in the way which you outlined just increases hatred and doesn't serve as a necessary punishment and rehabilitation. Hardly any prisoners would stay clean after coming out!

I think prisoners should get the vote yes.