Convicted prisoners to get vote

[2shoes]

not sure what I think of this
should they be allowed to vote ??

I think it is right that prisoners should have the vote - though as others have said, postal to their old constituency, so that they don't form a block vote in prison areas.

If nothing else - while there are a relatively small number of prisoners, their vote will be pretty insignificant as a bloc. If there start to be enough prisoners as a percentage of citizens that they have a meaningful vote as a group, then clearly something is going very wrong with society. I'm not sure I've worded that well, but I hope it makes sense.

I also agree with others who have said that counting someone as 'deserving' of a vote is a dangerous road to go down.

i am confused as to where i am with this one.

whilst i love the liberal argument. I also think that if you have committed a crime and imprisoned, you forfeit certain rights that 'free' men and women enjoy. One of these things is the vote.

Am really uncomfortable with convicted murderers and rapists being able to vote, but then again, once the categories start being restricted, then this could cause problems also.

So, the only people not able to vote are those who have been sectioned under the Mental health Act? And foreigners, obviously who don't have the right to vote.

Prisoners should be allowed the vote. By the fact of being in prison they are participants in our societal structures including our democratic structures. Prisoners do not exist outside of society, they are a central part of it as is the system of law, judgment and punishment that they participate in. It is important to encourage people in prison to become aware of their behavior and responsibility in relation to wider society and giving the vote is an important step forward in this regard.

@ilovemydogandMrObama... and members of the House of Lords.

I do see what you mean HellMouth, but in reality, the only right that actually is forfeited when someone goes to prison is physical liberty.

This argument is difficult as there are almost two separate debates - what you think the function of prisons should be (i.e. should criminals lose more rights when they go to prison), and then separately, what you believe democracy is (should everyone have a voice regardless of whether they 'deserve' it or not). It's very hard to completely separate the two debates, and I think people's varying opinions about the first, tend to get in the way of the second (this is not aimed at you HellMouth, just a general observation).

D

Of course!

And what is 'deserving of a vote'? In a democracy everyone has a right to vote - good people, bad people, responsible and irresponsible. Once you start excluding 'undesirable' people from the vote, the system begins to become undemocratic. When we take a poll of people's opinions we can't selectively make a choice of the 'sort of people' we wish to poll. We poll everybody and, for better or for worse, that is democracy. A vote isn't something we earn, it is a responsibility we bear.

It is a free country - and yes we are free to think what we like.

However, there are many "acts" which are legal, but still vile and are designed to stop people having freedom and liberty to live freely.

You only need to read MN to see examples of people who have broken no crime, but really are scum in the way that they act and behave towards other people/other groups of people. People with an ASBO (for example) can - as far as I can see vote. Despite the fact that they make other people's lives hell

Also agree with HonestyBox

There is I think a reasonable school of thought that if you don't like something, get involved, participate, and work to get it changed.

Committing crimes is the absolute wrong way to do this - if you have no money, and you don't like that situation, the solution is not to steal from someone else. I think it sends very confusing messages to the higlhy disenfranchised prison population if we are saying, you made the wrong decision once about how to improve your situation/get what you want, and now we're also going to prevent you from getting what you want in a more acceptable and civilised way.

I know this looks like I am completely overstating the likely importance of voting to the average prisoner, but the message is important as well as the actual practice.

D [still not a liberal lefty BTW]

What annoyed me about this argument was that last year I lost my democratic right to vote....
my crime???

Not returning a piece of paper to my local electorate to say yes I still stay here. I thought paying them council tax was proof enough

So its ok to take away my right to vote when I dont follow this simple rule but not ok to take it away for someone who has burgaled my house..

If you have been found guilty of a crime and sent to prison then you should not have the right to vote because the prisoner is not part of society while they are in jail.

I do think prisons can be improved and it makes no sense to me as to why prisoners are not trained in trades such as bricklaying, cooking and painting. I also think prisoners should be working for the community by doing things such as street cleaning, cleaning up parks, repairing government buildings including schools and painting. I also think they should be cooking and cleaning for themselves (Ie a group of prisoners work in the kitchens and as cleaners). This would allow prisoners to earn a minimum wage while they are in jail so when they are released they will have some funds to set themselves up with. Having picked up some new skills it should also be easier for them to get a job.

frasersmummy, I can see that would be annoying, but I'm not sure it is helpful to link the two things.

And interesting, Deliaskis, re not being a liberal lefty - I may be wrong, but just looking at some of the names I recognise on this thread it seems to me that there are several people with a generally right wing orientation who are in agreement with prisoners voting, and some lefties who are uncomfortable with it. I'm not sure it is a left/right divide type issue. (Also of course the Labour party has been sitting on this issue for a while.)

"t makes no sense to me as to why prisoners are not trained in trades such as bricklaying, cooking and painting. I also think prisoners should be working for the community by doing things such as street cleaning, cleaning up parks, repairing government buildings including schools and painting. I also think they should be cooking and cleaning for themselves (Ie a group of prisoners work in the kitchens and as cleaners). This would allow prisoners to earn a minimum wage while they are in jail so when they are released they will have some funds to set themselves up with. Having picked up some new skills it should also be easier for them to get a job."

but isn't that what already happens in most prison, and with community sentences

MaMoTTaT - No it doesn't. Most prisoners are locked up most of the time as their isn't money for those things.

Takver I had noticed that too, and maybe you're right that it's not a left/right issue. For me, it's that my belief in the 'sanctity' (for want of a better word) of democracy trumps any opinion I have about what prisoners should or shouldn't be doing/saying/having etc. I also don't feel my position on this conflicts with my more fundamental ideology which is I suppose moderate conservative.

Want2bSupermum this is exactly what happens in most prisons - prisoners work in the kitchens, clean, etc. and earn a (very small) wage for that, which they can save for when they are released, send home to family, or spend in prison on phone cards, snacks, and other items like e.g. shampoo etc. Prisoners also have the choice to go to 'school' i.e. they can do GCSEs or can learn a trade.

D

TheCoalition in the prison I worked in all of those things happened. I was served my lunch every day by a lifer and my office was cleaned by a prisoner, as were most of the areas of the prison.

It's probably cheaper for the prison to do this than to pay market rates to get external resource in. Prisoners don't get paid minimum wage.

D

Deliaskis - Is there much in the way of learning new skills though?

TheCoalition all prisoners had a choice of whether to do 'education' or 'work'. Education could be doing GCSEs, or learning metalwork or woodwork etc. (which was then used to 'fix' things in the prison). Work was any of the jobs that needed doing around the prison, which included cooking, cleaning, gardening, laundry etc. Those working in the kitchen for e.g. then also got the chance to do something like an NVQ for their kitchen skills once they had been working there for a certain length of time etc. And those who liked and were good at gardening could also get work towards some kind of certificate for that too.

The rate of pay was different for each thing, although education in the sense of classroom stuff was relatively well paid, and the very few who chose to do nothing, got nothing - I suppose they might have been locked up more, I don't know to be honest.

So yes, I would say there was opportunity to learn new skills.

D

That's good then.

sounds like school

I think prisoners should be allowed to vote because they still have to pay income and capital taxes, and council tax on their houses while they are in prison and the rule is "no taxation without representation" Anyway it encourages people to be responsible to ask them to participate in society by electing representatives - there is no individual benefit accruing from voting.

Working in public wasn't happening in 2000-2002 and I wasn't aware of this changing. I think it is important that work is done outside of prison as well as in prison. Street cleaning and picking up rubbish in parks are great examples of jobs a prisoner can do in public. I think working in public is a very important part of rehabilitating someone back into society.

I also don't agree with being allowed to do nothing. To be given a choice is very generous but it should be a requirement that you do something. Not working or learning is probably what got them into jail in the first place.

also - forgot to say it's great that prisons are training up prisoners.