Convicted prisoners to get vote

[2shoes]

not sure what I think of this
should they be allowed to vote ??

It occurs to me that there are probably enough prisoners in the UK to make it worth their having a separate MP. Which is not as mad as it sounds at first, as it would give prisoners a voice which present they only get through rioting or other unpleasant forms of protest.

Has anybody who thinks prison is not enough foe em actually been to a jail? As first year Cambridge law student a trip was organised to Norwich Jail, and I can assure you it's not anywhere I'd care to spend any length of time. And I didn't have that cushy an upbringing.

"As for the difference in sentencing that mostly arises from differences in the severity or crime or from being an habitual criminal, it's fair enough"

but surely breaking the law, is breaking the law? A crime is a crime.

And lets not forget you can have your sentence reduced simply for pleading guilty......

I do find it interesting that a country such as South Africa (which has notoriously harsh prisons) allows it's prisoners the vote.

'thats a nonsense argument though. It's like saying if I infringe on your right to freedom from arbitrary arrest by locking you in my kitchen, that you can then take away my right to freedom of religion and baptise me'

Exactly, and when we make them conditional, we open the door to a dangerous situation where the people (or government, or judiciary) of a time, can change their minds about who deserves which rights and who doesn't. At no point in history has this ended well.

D

And not for nothing, but not all prisoners are there because they have taken away someone else's human right. Although I still think that's a nonsense argument anyway.

The argument as to whether prison is enough of a punishment in itself is not really relevant to who should or shouldn't have the right to vote, and does I think distract from the actual issue.

D

Someone pointed out that there are two co-mingled issues here - the nature of democracy and the purpose of prison. Until we get those two sorted out in our society, then this will be always be contentious.

So, what is the purpose of prison? Rehabilitative, punitive, or protective of citizenry?

To answer the question about prisoners' rights, responsibilites and obligations, we have to start there.

Democracy is quite easy and it's a well-defined principle. In a democracy all adults have a voice (not everyone as otherwise children (and babies?) would be voting too).

Personally, I would say that upholding the democratic principle is more important and therefore prisoners should be allowed to vote.

I agree Jux I think that the purpose of prison is something that may change and develop depending on the mood of the people, government and judiciary etc. and will reflect current 'civilised' best thinking in this country (and of course differs widely from what is deemed acceptable in other countries).

Democracy is fixed, it's non-negotiable, and shouldn't bend and alter with the changing culture and values of a country.

D

Jux - the purpose of the criminal justice system is to reduce offending. Protecting the citizenry is a consequence of that and rehabilitation and punishment are tools to do that with.

Rehilitation/punishment is a false dichotomy.

Oh OK, thanks Coalition (it doesn't work too well though, does it? mind you, I'm probably talking out of my arse on that one).

It doesn't change the rest though, and I still think that on principle prisoners should have voting rights. The only way the purpose of prison would change that right would be if it's primary purpose were punitive, in which case there is an argument for using removal of a vote as a punishment. However, that's irrelevant in the light of what you've said.

We are still returning to the question of judges deciding the size and composition of the electorate. We are also, erroneously linking criminal behaviour with voting as a basic function of being a citizen.

Also, someone suggested prisoner have their own MP, but given that the vast majority of people senttenced to custody are spending no longer than a few weeks there makes that notion inoperable.

apart from a very snmall no. of people who die in prison, they all come out and so perhaps should have a voice in determining the direction of the country they are gonig ot live in.

Also as we are a predominantly female chamber, remember that women still get sentenced to custody for less serious offences, and much earlier in their offending history than men, and so such measures as we have now disproportionately disadvantage the voting rights of women.

Actually in Africa they don't need heating most of the time - and as has been pointed out South Africa has allowed prisoners the vote since 1999.........and they have horrendously harsh prisons.....

Actually non-British citizens can vote.

\link{http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/who_can_register_to_vote.aspx\citizens of those countries listed who have leave to remain in the UK or not require such leave}

We used to restrict the "common man" (that's you an me) from voting, and woman, and the blacks didn't used to be allowed to vote either in the US.

That doesn't mean those restrictions were correct.

nottirednow I'm pretty sure that the proportion of people in prison because it's a nice place to be is tiny in comparison to those who would rather not be there.

As MaMoTTaT says, 'We used to restrict the "common man" (that's you and me) from voting, and woman, and the blacks didn't used to be allowed to vote either in the US', and indeed, it doesn't mean that was correct.

I think it's too easy to say prisoners have chosen not to be citizens for a while. They actually haven't. They are in fact very active participants in some parts of society, such as the justice system, so should have their say in how the country is run. And in addition, they pay taxes on e.g. interest on savings and investments etc. so should have a say in how that is spent. No taxation without representation is absolutely right.

And it's also too easy to assume that everyone who is in prison is there because they're scum. This simply isn't the case. For example the lady who served me lunch every day when I worked in a prison, was a lifer, in for murder, had stabbed her husband after 20 years of violent physical and sexual abuse. There are some really tragic cases. I'm absolutely not a bleeding heart liberal, as I've said before, but it's wrong to tar all prisoners with the same brush.

This is even aside from the fact that there can be two people who have committed identical crimes and one gets prison and one doesn't.

D

If prisoners are given the right to vote, will they be eligible to vote for in the elections for police commissioners that the Government intends to set up.

''Actually non-British citizens can vote''

not in all elections we can't
I can only vote in local ones

have not yet formed an opinion on this subject I can see pro and against arguments

will have to think more about this

sfxmum - then you're obviously not a citizen of one of the qualify countries on the list I linked to

exH has voted in all Elections in 2001 - and he's not a British citizen - he's a Commonwealth one

I am not commonwealth am EU so cannot vote on general election and I have lived and paid taxes here since '93

One point that hasn't been mentioned on this thread is that it is still quite possible within the ECHR judgement for some categories of prisoners to lose their voting rights, it was only the blanket ban on prisoners voting that was ruled unlawful.

The blanket ban means, for example, that someone like Milan Rai who was imprisoned for reading out the names of Iraqi civilian war dead at the Cenotaph loses his vote.

nottirednow - your last point about allowing everyone in the world to vote is clearly irrelevant, we are talking here about all British citizens (plus some commonwealth citizens in certain circumstances, as noted above).

Of course British citizens who live overseas can still vote, which I have always considered a little odd (having lived abroad for several years myself - in fact I didn't vote in UK elections then as it seemed inappropriate).

It's a right to vote in the country of which you area a citizen though....... (the commonwealth bit harks back to a completely different debate)

Nottired, my take on it would be that being able to participate in choosing the government of your country is the general human right.

In practice, clearly it isn't a general human right, since it is something that a large proportion of the world's population don't get to do.

But as many others have pointed out, there are dangers in starting to restrict exactly which categories of British citizens are worthy of the vote.

Sorry, not entirely clear, but dinner is ready . . .

British citizens overseas have restricted voting rights and it's a PITA too keep your vote. I retain mine as we will probably be back some day and it's important to me to shape the country I'll be returning to.