Child benefit cut unenforceable

[mcquade]

It has emerged that the scrapping of child benefit for upper rate taxpayers is unenforceable and the Treasury is in a flap about, having failed to consult civil servants before making its headline-grabbing announcement. Yet another mess. Full story here:

blogs.wsj.com/iainmartin/2010/10/28/child-benefit-cut-unenforceable-treasury-in-a-flap/?mod=rss_WSJBlog&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I don't think benefits should bring a family up to the same levels as a HRT family but then I don't think they do.

I, on the other hand, believe that lower taxes andreduction of state benefits (in which I include education, healthcare and pensions) lead to medicare and soup kitchens.

We'll have to agree to differ.

They do huddspur, they really do.

I'm a labour voter and I recently joined the party because I think the Tory party will take the country backwards and they only care about the very rich.

Having said that the welfare system really is in need of a radical overhaul. As things currently stand there really is no incentive to work. Its a shame Labour didn't get their act together on this issue as they have lost lots of votes because of this.

Without coming over all daily mail I can give examples within my own family where a family living on benefits who have never worked are financially better off than a family with a higher rate taxpayer in it.

A relative of mine has just been housed in an absolutely fantastic house - it is the house that most people can only dream of. I have friends who are Oxbridge graduates in very senior positions who couldn't even afford a home like this. This can't be right surely?

I really hope that Labour win the next election and wake up to the fact that people aren't prepared to accept a society that rewards opting out.

The way in which the Tory party is going about reforming the welfare system is unfair and cruel in some cases.

thedollshouse I agree with you that the welfare system needs a radical overhaul and we need to create a greater incentive to work but I don't think that those who on welfare are on the same income as a family with an earner who pays HRT.

Huddspur. It is the case. The relative that is being housed in the fantastic house has told me what she receives per month and the net amount is slightly more than what we receive once you take housing costs into consideration. Add on things such as free school meals and prescriptions etc and it is substantially more.

Mila what was the biscuit for?

I am not asking for benefits for the poor to be cut, I would like to see them inreased for the very poorest. I don't think that a HRT forgoing their £17 a week is going to end up in a soup kitchen. And I say that as someone who has been homeless and did rely on food handouts.

I am an Oxbridge graduate, that does not mean I am entitled to a big house!

thedollshouse, the key word you use is 'housed'. They don't own their own house and are not in a position to if they on benefits.

I cannot believe that it's possible for a family to receive benefits equivalent to £37,400 which is the income for a higher rate tax payer.

'the net amount is slightly more than what we receive once you take housing costs into consideration'

But the 'once you take housing costs into consideration' is significant. Do you mean your housing costs or your relative's (i.e. housing benefit).

Sorry but if families getting the same,slightly less or more income per month than a HRT need CB so does the HRT. Off course if that family doesn't need it neither does the HRT.

If a HRT earner getting the same per month,slightly less or more as somebody on benefits is asked to forgo CB then so should people receiving benefits. Maybe there needs to be a threshold on benefits too otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole system.

Waterloo - I don't think that being an Oxbridge graduate means that you are entitled to a big house. That isn't what I said. The point I was trying to make is that I know lots of people across the social spectrum and yet even the most successful people don't have a property quite as fancy as the property my relative is being housed in. We are rewarding those who choose not to work and that is not good for society.

I am pleased that housebuilders have to reserve a proportion of their homes for social housing. It stops areas becoming ghettos, gives poorer children access to schools in better catchment areas and reduces the stigma of living in social housing. This is a good thing for society. However it is really necessary or wise to house non working families in such swanky homes?

Google The Draycote by Barratt homes if you want to see what I am talking about.

fivecandles. Where does £37,400 come from? Our net pay is nowhere near that figure.

Also you say the family on benefits will never own their home, no they won't but neither will lots of working people renting privately. The fact that the family don't own the home is irrelevant, it is perhaps even an advantage. They will never have to pay for a new boiler and when they reach retirement age HB will still cover the rent.

I cannot believe that it's possible for a family to receive benefits equivalent to £37,400 which is the income for a higher rate tax payer.

fivecandles there are a number of examples further up this thread where salary + benefits (CTC/WTC/HB/CTC/ChB) gives a family an income equivalent (as benefits are paide net) to someone with a gross income in the range of £36k and upwards, so yes it is very possible. Two of the examples were based on figures supplied by posters themselves, so they are real figures from real people.

MilaMae you are right but remember fairness doesn't come into the equation with a Tory government. Fairness wouldn't allow a system whereby a HRT single mother is penalised. Fairness wouldn't remove EMA from poor families.

I agree that there should be a limit to benefits, the present government are trying to do that. I do think that the people who claim supposedly huge amounts on benefits are very rare. I claimed benefits as a single mother with a disabilty and I never had anything like the money of a HRT.

Tbh a good Oxbridge graduate should be able to choose their salary, I have chosen a relatively low paid career in relation to the people that I went to university with. Therefore I am not pissed off that I do not own my own home anymore and that people on benefits may live in a similar home to me. I have not met any that do, but I take your word that there are people in benefits living in swanky houses. I must have been a crap benefits claimant as I lived in a hovel.

Dollshouse owning your own home is a huge advantage when it comes to having paid off your mortgage and living mortgage free in later life. I lie awake at night worrying about how we are going to afford to live when we are retired if we don't own our own home.

Out of interest Mila, do you think that someone like me earning in excess of 50K should recieve their child benefit? I am wondering if are actually disagreeing as much as it would appear. Do you agree there should be a threshold but it needs to be set a littlehigher. Perhaps the HRT should be at 50K so it would affect people on my wage but not yours. I would be open to that.

"Dollshouse owning your own home is a huge advantage when it comes to having paid off your mortgage and living mortgage free in later life. I lie awake at night worrying about how we are going to afford to live when we are retired if we don't own our own home."

It's not such a huge advantage now as many older people have to sell their homes to pay for care anyway. My nan was never able to get a mortgage but she was able to get HB anyway, even when she was retired. She's in a care home now, which was free as she didn't own a home, but other residents there had to sell and are paying for it.

Oh yes Water definitely.

I certainly agree not all on HRT should get it but I've no idea where the cut off should be. There may be others working in London with massive travel costs that may be on £50 that would still feel it,I don't know to be honest.

I would have thought at some point you'd earn enough and be living anywhere and not really struggle if you lost it.

I don't want to lecture anybody on what they can afford though as in theory as we are just HTP(when dp can do overtime)we are well off according to many people even though it isn't the case. There must be experts who would be able to look at all factors and work this out to get to a fairer cut off bracket but I guess that would cost a lot and to be frank I don't think the Tories care one bit.

I do wonder if they're doing it to cause bitterness and Daily Mail type views in different sections of society so they can cut even more.

I think dollhouse has a point re the owning your own home and retirement.I've witnessed both.My grandma never claimed a single benefit her whole life and at the end of her life she struggled financially.She had huge bills from a management company on the upkeep of her flat.She had money after downsizing but it all just got eaten up in bills and very little help when she became ill.Also all her kids lived miles away partly due to the high cost of housing in her area.As a result of this she had to fund a lot of support herself eg somebody to clean,shop etc.

Dp's nan on the other hand had relied on benefits all her life and lived in sheltered accommodation,everything seemed to just get laid on when she needed support.She had no upkeep to worry about as the council totally looked after her flat. Also she had all her kids nearby as they all lived in council houses(very expensive area) except for dp's mother.At the end of her life dp's nan had far less stress and worry.

I know all about having to sell a home to pay for care, we had to do exactly that with our home rather than force my elderly father in law into an unfamilair home. It makes you wonder though why people struggle to buy a home if it brings you no advantage at all.

My grandmother recieves housing benefit so she can stay in her disgsuting council flat. It breaks my heart that we can't afford to give her a better home. I am sure that in her old age she would rather be in a house that she owned rather than scared in a high rise flat. Even if she had to sell that home to pay for her care.

I feel not receiving housing benefit even on 50K as we provide for a wider extended family. We have second hand clothes, I work a second job in the holiays, DH takes on extra work when he can. We rarely do holidays and then are always camping. But I think if I must find life hard on my wage how must others cope and therefore I would not want to claim child benefit or any other handout.

I agree Waterloo re your grandmother but actually dp's nan was far better off than my grandma. She had a gorgeous I call it flat but was a ground floor mini bungalow I guess with a lovely garden and further grounds all taken care of. It was all kitted out with rails etc. Whatever she needed she got ,had all her kids near by,she really was well cared for.

My poor grandma was the one in a flat(groundfloor) with no garden and all the rip off management fees to pay. She had chronic arthritis and had to battle for everything,even a rail in her bath. She had constant worry over what we might class as tiny as basically she didn't have an endless pot of money but was struggling. She was had a lovely house in Tunbridge Wells,by the time she downsized paid for all her care,fees,upkeep,bills etc she left hardly anything and had all the worry to boot.If she'd lived a few more years things would have been very difficult indeed.

I don't think old people should be in high rise flats full stop and should all have what dp's nan had but honestly owning your own home when you're old isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I am sick of people assuming we have alot of money. My DH earns just over £44,000 before all outgoings so we will lose the CB in 2013. I have had to go back to childminding and go for dinner lady-type jobs even though I am qualified to be a Level 2 Teaching Assistant but cannot afford to pay a childminder to look after my own 8 year old son (I have no relatives close-by and we don't get Working Families Tax Credit which helps towards childcare).

I have a 17 year old still getting CB but not EMA and £20 per week does not buy shoes or clothes and there are no jobs where we live, she has been in every shop in Manchester and our local area with CVs.

I really think letting people who earn twice what DH earns have CB is not fair at all and I really hope it is unenforceable. I earn very little as I only have one part-time child and out of that I have to pay National Insurance and Public Liability Insurance and membership fees as well as OFSTED Registration fees every year. I hope I get that dinner lady job...

Lots of men and women, well mainly women but that is another issue, have to do work they are over qualified for when they have young children.

I agree though it seems unfair that a couple coul bring in 80K an sill have CB.

huddspur Fri 29-Oct-10 18:43:49
MilaMae The mortgage you took out is of no relevance as to whether you should get child benefit. The reality is this country has an enormous deficit which must be reduced and I think this is a very obvious saving (I say this as someone who will also lose CB).

Winter Fuel Allowance was kept universal because the Government claims that the cost of means testing this would outweigh any savings (no idea whether this is true)

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Don't get at MilaMae, I'm in exactly the same position, my dh is HRT because he has a demanding job in lower management. Next year the Tax Credits are going yet he will pay more in National Insurance and tax and in 2013 CB is going.

Target the ones who come into this country with all their children/paying CB for children back in their own country -this is NOT RIGHT, they know how to work the system don't they. Also people who don't declare their partner's income and get Tax credits and CB - that is also stealing is it not? Why the hell should my (and plenty of other HRT payers) slog each day to pay for people like these? [hangry]

We have an old 12 year old car and go on holiday in this country once a year to my Mum's caravan - is this a holiday of a 'well off family of 5? I have 2 jobs now for when the CB goes, I think we are going to need it.

If it pays that well, why don't you take a less wall paid job and "work the system"?

Not saying middleclass people will end up in soup kitchens - saying poor will have to rely on charity (church soup kitchens (or to put it another way 'the big society'?)) rather than getting proper benefits to pay for food once you have a two tier welfare system.

Also, while child benefit can be spent on lattes, it can also be spent on additional costs if one parent is disabled, additional costs if a child has SN, additional costs if you can't access free nursery care for under 5's at a school nursery, additional costs if you are a single parent and have to pay for child care while you work. None of these things are adequately covered by existing state provision. Is it really morally better to get free teaching from a state school than it is to pay for Occupational Therapy with Child Benefit?

I know not all people need the things in my list, but my point is you can't judge needs by looking at a person's tax rate. We could provide some of these things by some kind of test, (means testing, increased DLA form filling), but what a relief not to have to, and to just have some money that you can choose how to spend on your children.

waterlooroadisadocumentary Sun 31-Oct-10 21:12:56
If it pays that well, why don't you take a less wall paid job and "work the system"?

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I will not 'work the system' as you call it because we are honest, hard working people. I paid for a Teaching assistant course to try and have a change of career but it has not worked out so have had to go back to minding. I really wanted to be able to decorate my house again having done childminding for over 10 years.

My DH has got to where he is by sheer hard work although he wonders why he bothers when he is stuffed for more tax, more National Insurance etc to keep the ones who are 'working the system'