Rotweillors

[reptile]

What I can't understand (re the recent case in Dundee of a small girl being mauled by 3 rotweillors) is why we can't have a law limiting the number of these dogs people are allowed to own. I'm a dog owner, but why does anyone need/want 3 dogs, let alone rotweillors.
It would be so easy to police, rather than going on a case-by-case basis, if you had to have a license for your dog, and, in the case of dangerous breeds, had to prove your case for owning more than one (or even just one IMO).

I do understand what you mean Spikey, I can't imagine any CM worth her salt saying "Kill all Staffies" though to be honest.

Not if she wanted any mindees anyway.

'I just shrug and know one day the headline will be repeated. Nothings been done for the last 25 years and nothing will be done.'

If I'm still posting here when I'm 75, I would bet that at least once every couple of months a thread will come up like this one and I'll think of you EleanorRigby and how right you were.

' was referring to the hystericals at the start of this thread, the OP included, who all seem to have melted away instead of taking up my challenge'

Some of us went to work, and saw all the delighted faces of the parents handing over their little darlings after 6 looong weeks.

"Why buy when others die" Is a great phrase, and I am proud my dog is from a rescue centre.

Listen, I agree that any dog attack on kids is one too many, but as said below on this thread many children have wonderful relationships with family dogs, they enjoy them, they play with them they grow up with them they love them. I type this as my 8 year old ds and my 2 year old black lab are laid together on the rug watching TV.

Dogs are loyal, extremely intelligent and are capable of doing wonderful jobs that save peoples live, keep the country safe and help blind and deaf people lead independent lives.

Some of us are working now (or supposed to be, thank eff I'm my own boss!). :o

Back to the blackboard for you Goblinchild, is it by any chance? :o

I get what you mean Spikey. And I am sure I have read somewhere that there is correlation between people who commit acts of cruelty to animals and people who go on to commit violent acts to other adults and children.

Eleanor, that is awful. I am sorry about what happened to your dog and I am sure you are right, there will be more people attacked by dogs in the future. I am also sure that the dog who killed yours and the dogs who will carry out future attacks, will be owned by irresponsible, cruel people. And we all want to put a stop to that.

But banning certain breeds is not the answer. New breeds will become the 'status symbol' of the time and people will also continue buying and breeding illegal dogs, irresponsibly.

It's not the same now I have a laptop and an IWB Valhalla, harder to make that fantastic screechy sound of chalk on board for one.

:o Goblin. Bugger, that means that you can't lob blackboard rubbers either!

Our local teachers are lucky - they're taking part in a training day, so they get another day's grace.

shiny i have also read that about a correalation aswell. cannot remember where though as it was a few years ago.

Well my little child eater has been packed off out with my actual children (and DH of course) for at least an hour before I send them all to the sausage factory

They are going to a ..... children's play park

disclaimer: there are two play parks in this particular park, dogs are banned from one and welcome in another and he will remained leashed.

DrNorthener my 3.5 yr old had the same reaction as you described earlier, to a tiny dog that decided to appear at our lane and follow us down to the house today. Dd was suddenly up in my arms screaming. Last week she loved dogs and would call hello doggie to them that's kids for you, changing all the time. Dd watched from the sittingroom window as I petted the dog and gave it some water to drink, I'm hoping that by example she can relearn being unafraid of dogs because then she is less likely to experience trouble with them.

The dogs owner wasn't about, it was a fat little thing that I think decided to take itself for a walk, but if the owner had of seen dd's upset I don't think it would be fair to call us hysterics.

"my little child eater" - in a thread about a horrific dog attack on a child? How completely inappropriate. I'm quite sure you were "joking". It's not really funny though is it?

horrible accidental turn of phrase ShinyandNew

I vote for muzzling in public

those soft muzzles made of kind of bag-handle material can't be so bad

The thread isn't about the attack though is it. It may have been sparked by attack, but it not actually about the attack. It is about certain breeds of dog.

Of course I have every sympathy for the girl and her family. It must have been terrifying for them.

But it really is not a reason to start calling for mass murder of certain breeds and compulsory muzzling.

It's not the material that the muzzle is made of that is the issue, it what they do. I have no problem with aggressive or unreliable dogs being muzzled. But many well trained dogs, who have never done anything wrong and are highly likely never to do anything wrong, don't need muzzling. It would prevent them from playing chase/catch etc which is in the nature of breeds. It would be cruel to muzzle them constantly in public and stop them running off leash.

"those soft muzzles made of kind of bag-handle material can't be so bad"

I wouldn't use that type they are dreadful. They dont allow the dog to open their mouth at all not even to pant and one caused my sheltie cross irreparable damage to his nose.
Use the basket type ones.

Copied this from K9 magazine....

Allowing a dog to exhibit normal behaviour means allowing a dog to exercise freely. There are some dogs ? in fact most dogs ? who absolutely thrive on the freedom to run and shake loose the constraints of a lead or the confinement of the four walls of their home and garden. To many dogs, this is their ?reason to live?. This is their most treasured treat. It also keeps them healthy. If we are to constrain dogs and deny them the ability to exercise freely, a number of things will start to happen and start to happen quickly:

The dogs will start to become very, very wound up at home. Too much energy, no outlet for it. Anyone who has ever had to spend time in a confined space will realise how tedious that becomes. Think of a longhaul flight for an example. Sitting there, waiting for someone else to provide you with ?release?, waiting for someone else to feed you, relying on others for your stimulation. Now imagine that your entire life was spent on a longhaul flight. I project you?ll do one of two things: You?ll either go quietly mad and spend your days asleep in a permanent bout of depression or you?ll go VERY mad and start threating to to do ?crazy? things in order to get your freedom back. To confine dogs to a permanent life on a longhaul flight will cause a lot of problems.

Dogs will begin to attack more people in their homes. No doubt about it. A dog who is ?wound up? a dog who has more energy than they are ever permitted to expend will be a problem dog. If we estimate that 2, maybe 3% of all the dogs in the UK are responsible for attacks and injuries caused by dogs as things stand today ? by having a blanket ?no dogs off lead in public? law, you can comfortably project that we?ll have maybe as high as 20% of dogs who will pose a far greater risk to people. Yes, we may reduce dog attacks in public but my word, we will massively increase the number of attacks in the home.

Muzzling

Similar to the freedom to run argument. If you take away a dog?s defence mechanisms: either the ability to run away or the ability to ?fight? you will instantly place the dog into a state of heightened tension.

I want you to think about an elephant. Let us say that you have met the elephant in the boardroom and you?ve just managed to calm your nerves, your blood pressure is lower and your starting to feel a bit more comforable. No doubt you?ll still be very aware of the fact that there is an elephant in the room but you?ve just about managed to compose yourself. Firstly, you have the door behind you so if things take a turn for the unexpected you can always leg it! Only, now you can?t. Because what?s going to happen now is you are going to be tethered to the radiator and your hands are going to be tied behind your back. How you feeling now? A little less composed? A little vulnerable? Nervous? Tense?

The solution, whilst simple, is not easy. Dog owners need to better informed on how to manage their animals. They need to be better prepared for the reality that their dogs can and will behave differently in different situations, never assume. They must have better control of their dogs. If they can not recall their dog then they simply should not have the dog off a lead until such a time as that training objective has been achieved. Dog owners need to be aware of the fact that their dogs should not invade other people?s space. Dog owners need to take control of their dogs and to improve their ownership standards. If we could make this happen, society, dogs and their owners would be a lot, lot happier.

The OP referenced the attack in her first post. The attack was the reason that the OP was questioning whether ownership of certain breeds of dogs should be in some way regulated or limited. The attack has been uppermost in my mind when posting / reading this thread.

I have not called for "mass murder" or "compulsory muzzling". Indeed I have been genuinely interested to find out how dog lovers feel about these types of attacks and what can be done to limit them. I have suggested leads. I have also suggested muzzles if the owner is unsure of how a dog may react to people in certain situations. I don't think either suggestion is unreasonable or cruel.

I am a long way from being a dog hater. In fact, when the kids are a bit older, I would love to have a dog as a family pet. In all likelihood a rescue one at that. And probably a lab, retriever, setter type size.

Having said all that I would like to finish with this. I believe that society as a whole has a duty to protect children (and all vulnerable people be they disabled, elderly etc...). It is to me, the most basic aspect of humanity/society. No animals life is more important than a human beings. End of story.

Some of us feel that both lives are equally important, Molly.

Each to their own, we won't change each others views on that particular issue and I'm sure you don't seek to do that to me any more than I do to you. :)

As a lighthearted aside... I'm delighted to hear that you would consider a rescue dog and that you said setter size and not a setter. Now, I know I have said these things about judging the individuals and not the breed and have pulled people for using one-off anecdotal "evidence" to counter experience and fact, but...

IME :o setters are bloody mad! Lovely, fun animals, but as mad as cheese! You'll be a brave woman to own one of them! :o

Please, please take the time to read this

I remember this horrendous incident well and this little girl's mother campaigning tirelessly for rottweilers to be recognised as a dangerous breed.

I don't understand why all dogs can't be muzzled in public.

Valhalla - We'll agree to disagree then re equal importance.

Re setters - DH's childhood pet was a setter. Lived til it was 17. God he loved that dog. Hence he would like another one...as of course it will be exactly the same Not paying £600 for a puppy though

It's still a few years off but yes we would favour getting a rescue dog. It is a bit of a minefield though. I don't want a yappy wee thing, or a rottie or anything similar (sorry but just - no). Most of the dogs needing rehomed round here are collies and am not convinced they make the best family pets. Maybe I'm wrong but my perception is they are basically working dogs and best left as such? Just want a docile, gentle creature that likes people and gives me an excuse to go for long walks when I should be cleaning the house...

At the very least there should be basic dog psychology classes at school, why can't schools teach life skills like dog owning? just as in America they teach kids how to drive. They could visit dog rescue centres, learn how to read dog body language, how to train etc. I'm not a dog owner but I do think everyone would benefit from such a school programme because the more understanding people have of dogs the less likely they are to be afraid (and hence less likely to be bitten)and they would make safer dog owners in the future.

Earlier someone posted that possible owners of certain breeds should do a 6 mth programme with a rescue centre involving training etc. I think that is an excellent idea.

It makes perfect sense that a muzzled dog would become wound up. It is a lazy option and yet another route to completely avoiding our responsibilities to these loyal and completely at our mercy animals.

Molly, I know families with BC's but they do ime need a certain type, who will accommodate their need for exercise and mental stimulation. They aren't suited to everyone, I think you're wise. From what you say I guess you might be in a rural area and the number of BCs are due to an excess of farm dogs or, worse still, puppy farmed dogs which have been rescued, something which is common in certain areas, in particular rural Wales and Ireland. If so, I can see that these dogs would indeed be quite demanding.

WRT rescue, some only rehome locally BUT many, breed rescues in particular, such as, for example, GSD Rescue UK, rehome across the country. Likewise, another of many, the all breed rescue Many Tears. It's always worth asking/checking websites to see what the policy is.

The rescue I volunteer for generally only rehomes within an hours drive of it's premises. This is because of the need to homecheck and in case they need to speedily pick up a dog which the owner needs to return, as it's their (and any decent rescue's) policy to take back a dog in such cases no matter how many years down the line. However they will under certain circumstances rehome further away if they can secure a suitable homecheck and if the home is special enough for that particular dog to merit it and many rescue will make similar exceptions. You'll find the small, independent ones are normally far more flexible than the big rescues.

Hormones, for every story like the one you posted I can counter with a good one about large and/or allegedly "dangerous" breeds. We all have our own take and our own stories to relate but what I have been trying to say here is that we need to look at the bigger picture and the situation as a whole, which is that there are THOUSANDS of dogs going about their family lives with no issue to every one tragic tale. And, we need to address the problem at bare root level, encouraging good ownership, legislating against the DEEDS and not certain dogs because of their breed or because they have a muzzle and leg length of so many inches, campaigning for tighter controls on breeding, teaching people that rescue dogs are by no means all strays without history and therefore unknown quantities and that given the number of dogs in pounds and rescue across the UK people should be encouraged to rescue, not go to breeders.

(Amongst other things!).

I feel like a poker player and want to use my experience in handling and dealing with dogs to say, "I see your aggressive dog and I raise you a Pets As Therapy Doberman" each time I am given a specific bad story!

So, there was your bad story. Here's my good one

I carried this dog from place to place around the rescue when he lost all function in his back legs. It took 3 of us, 4 when we had an extra person, to do it. I sat beside him on the floor stroking his face. He weighs a ton, he was totally at my mercy, vulnerable. And all he did was lick my hands.

For every story out there that is sad and tragic, there are a thousand that are positive, but as I've already said, "Paraplegic Rottweiler doesn't bite rescuer" doesn't sell newspapers.

Thanks for responding Val. In a rural area of Scotland. So not farmed puppies just unwanted pups of sheepdogs. Back to irresponsible owners again.... Collies are lovely and I can do the exercise bit. Not the level of mental stimulation they would require though. I'm sure we'll find the right dog when the time comes but yes, we may well be a special case as we are MILES away from nearest rescues. But we have plenty of room, a big garden, miles of beaches etc.. I like to think we would be seen as suitable adopters....