State school kids do better at university

[clemetteattlee]

here

Very good post thedollyridesout.

And as well as the poorest, underperforming pupils, remember that state comprehensives will also have pupils who may come from very supportive, middle class homes, but who have very limited ability and will never be able to achieve well academically. These pupils would in previous years have attended special schools. Where I teach, for instance, we have just had two pupils sit a limited number of GCSEs in which they will possibly achieve G/F grades. These two pupils come from middle class, supportive families. The problem? They have congenital conditions which mean they have moderate learning difficulties and will never achieve well academically. They have, however, gained a wonderful social experience through having access to

Will their exam results look good in the league tables? No.

Do out exam results for all the upper sets compare well with the local private? Yes.

thedolly - this overachievement has been sustained for the best part of two hundred years and continues apace.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, independently schooled children find themselves way way over represented at university and thereafter in the best paid and most influential jobs.

Unless we swallow this bitter pill, we can't hope to change it.
Pretending that this has all changed and that independent schooled children are all failing in their droves may make us feel better ( and boy does it make some here feel better) but it does nothing to change the hard facts.

the thing is violet, I want to know why those pupils in the top sets who are obviously capable aren't then finding themselves in the best paid/most influential jobs ( the later probaby being more important for systemic change in the long run).

Obviously some are, but statistically they are under represented.

Isn't it about time we bite the bullet and find out why?

Litchick are you disregarding the information in the OP's link?

The 'monied' have always done well, money is power after all but it is not necessarily indicative of a good education.

Litchick "At the primary school where I volunteer there are so many things the school isn't allowed to do. One example is that the literacy coordinator is only allowed to use the 'approved' books. What is this, fecking North Korea."

he Literacy co-ordinator is having you on - there is no 'approved' list. Although I would be interested to know what books you suggested so that he/she felt obliged to trot out this line to you?

'A classic example if the is the bright girl who opts for Child Care at GCSE, when Sciences would lead her a future with wider range of options, which could, I might add, include working with children

You know, I was banned by school from taking 3 sciences and amde tog ive up physics even though I was second ranked girl in the school (I was top at geog but amde to give that up too), I was pushed into typing and childcare.

Typing- well the failure of that is obvious in my posts! Childcare becuase it was assumed the girls on my estate would be kncoked up by 16; many were. I wasn't though, I just complete interest in school and it wasn't until a few eyars later I enagged with it agin.

Now this is 20 years ago, right?

Except no: my best mate who still lives there has a son starting that school this year and reports many of the same teachers. She is pretty worried about him being there; she recalls some of the other ways I was treated for a start (parading me across the stage to show my schoolwork in a carrier becuase my schoolbag had broken before Dad's payday; being referred to as Cretin and a class being given about 'cretins and people like her' when I was absent) but willing to risk it for lcoal and not rocking the boat.

Whereas deep down avoiding that palce is a lrge part of teh reason why I live miles away and indeed across UK borders now. Over my dead body would my kids ever go there.

And maybe that acceptance of shit for some comapred with being prepared to move heaven and earth and make many sacrifices to ensure a decent childhood is a factor in whhy my boys have better life chances? Indie no, but indie equivalent.

Litchick WRT to books I read at school too, and one of the ones we use to much sorrow and horror is a history of Daley Thompson which finishes with the immortal lines 'And now we wish Daley luck and success in the 1984 olympics...'

I mean!!!!!!!!!! Surely if theyc an afford a mass display on candles at Christmas theyc an buyy something better? (and yes I wouild pay for a few myself if I only thought they'd be used; the donate a plant for the agrden week for which Is aved and bought really nice ones resulted in the plants dying as etachers forgot to water them and put them in a shed to die)

When ds1 leaves if I an I am going to buy a few decent books but they will sit at teh back in a box unopened: they don't even read in class now, they cut that for a third Church session each week, unless parents go in but you ahve to fight to be allowed and won't be welcomed: busy and cold corridor is all the space you get.

Call me old fashioned but seems to me if you can read well you can learn pretty much anything and reading should be one of the main emphasis points of primary ed. My asd 7 year old in an SNU is way ahead in reading of some of those apparently NT 9 year olds and nobody seems to cotton on.

Feenie - it was the Head that told me, backed up by a class teacher...since I'm the lieracy co-ordinator. They asked me to tell them which books I wanted to read to year six and I suggested Noughts and Crosses, Ways to Live Forever and The Little House in the Big Woods.
I was told no to all three.

Most Literacy co-ordinators have autonomy over that sort of thing and work closely with class teachers to purchase quality texts - there is definitely no approved list.

I don't understand what you mean though, how can you be a volunteer and Literacy co-ordinator?

Lst eyar I went on a suggested book list for kids the age of mine and spent (too much but worth it) money

One of tehm was a childs version of Beowulf, possibly the foirst bookk ds1 read properly; another Watership Down

School complained I was encouraging violence

FGS!

(The Beowulf was sanitised beyond beleif but in a positive way- hard to explain but a decent classics intro)

Yet in a year ds1 has gone from being a non reader to persuing the Harry Potters for fun, and it is becuase he has some decent books to read

Litchick - The Old Boy Network is still rife in some aspects of society, in various guises, is the answer to your question.It's not rocket science to work that out. As you acknowledge, it's nothing to do with innate ability, or good teaching, or exam results, since there are hundreds of thousands of children in the upper sets of thousands of state schools who have exactly those things.

This thread has gone off at a bit of a tangent, because some posters are barking up the wrong tree and thinking that the reason a disproportionate number of private school pupils end up in 'top jobs' is because they are more able. Actually, in some respects, Xenia talks a lot of sense here, because at least she realises that she has paid for certain schools for the prestige factor, and not because are children have amazing intelligence or abilities that other children don't.

I don't think things are as bad as some people paint though, and certainly these days, bright children have access to all sorts of interesting and high profile jobs which they didn't in yesteryear - eg medicine (used to be pretty much a closed shop unless daddy was a doctor), law etc etc
Looking at the University destinations for our current 6th form, you'd be hard pushed to know whether it's a state or private school - there's the usual Oxbridge, RG plus other universities.

But yes, I agree, if you are desperate that your child has a good chance of becoming an Archbishop, or a Senior Cabinet Minister, then, yes, you would be better off paying to send them to a private school, which is a pretty abhorrent idea to many people in the 21 st century, and one which many of us don't buy into. Thankfully none of my children aspire to those things anyway, so at least we haven't wasted money on just paying for exam results which they would have achieved anyway!!

that should read, 'not because her children have amazing intelligence....'

fascinating about Beowulf. Sounds like political correctness rearing its ugly head again. God knows what's happened to Hansel and Gretel?

The approved list would probably be in the vein of the Great Leader (Gordon Bennett) saving the planet from the evils of carbon. A bit like that advert for global warming where they tried to frighten children that we would all drown under feet of water. But classics like Beowulf are no go.

There is no approved list at primary school!

great news. Thank God the coalition is in, the other lot were probably drawing up an approved list before they were unceremoniously ejected.

Feenie I am indeed the literacy co-ordinator and a volunteer.
I only went in initially to hear children read ( because the parents won't grrrrrr )and ended up being asked to do more and more.

TBut this just goes to show the patchy state provision. Some schools will have a proper literacy coordinator who can choose any books they like. Some will have an unqualified volunteer who is told that she has to obey a fictional 'appproved list'.

Sometimes I could weep.

I agree but there is patchy provision in so many other areas too. Not all private schools are uniformly good. Some are excellent, some good, some mediocre and some poor.

Same with many things. Some areas have lovely housing, others are crap. Some people live in areas with great amenities, some don't.

Fair enough to aspire to want crapness eradicated, it's a noble aim, but it goes far beyond some state schools.

Violet - I'm sure the old school tie does still exist, but I do think part of the problem is that so many state schooled children just don't apply for some jobs ( or not in the statistical numbers that they should ).

The arts and media are a good example. Everyone watches telly, listens to the radio, reads books...these are everyday things, yet so few apply to be part of it.

The city is overwhelming in the lack of non independent kids. DH is one of the very very few who came from a comp. He says he sees so few applications from young people from his background. 90% come from private school both in the UK and increasingly from abroad too.

Then you aren't what is usually meant by the term Literacy co-odinator, Litchick - budget for purchasing all Literacy materials in school, responsible for the teaching of reading, writing, speaking and listening n the school, monitoring teaching and learning, observing lessons, delivering training, often a member of the senior management team.

Although your volunteer role sounds interesting, Literacy co-ordinators are usually senior teachers and responsible for everything to do with Literacy in primary schools.

Litchick - I am not disagreeing with your last point Litchick - but I don't know what the answer is, because the problem with anything which needs a long term solution rather than a quick fix, is that a couple of generations of people, at least, have got to put up with the downsides to stand any chance of beginning to effect change.

For example, as I've spoken about on other threads, my first career was one where ex-private school pupils were over represented, and one of the reasons I got bored and frustrated with it was precisely because of the over-achievement that thedolly described earlier - colleagues who really weren't the sharpest tool in the box, but had an over inflated sense of their own ability and importance, and frankly, were rather dull to work with.

The career I am in now (education) is frankly far more intellectually stimulating and creative, and the people I work with are more interesting. I was willing to sacrifice the higher income for the intellectual stimulation. Should I have remained in my previous career, to wave the banner for state school pupils? I don't think so. My own career satisfaction is more important to me.

Hats off to your DH if working in a private school dominated city job is what he wants (and there's no irony there - I genuinely admire that) but it's not what's going to float everyone's boat.

Lots of left-wingers teach in the private sector Xenia (and not so many in the state sector, neo-Conservatism ruled in our staffroom). Those from the left who teach in the private sector are IME even more vehement about their beliefs due to the guilt of having sold their soul to the private devil for the enhanced pay and better trips.

Feenie - I certainly don't do all that. Wouldn't know whwere to start LOL.

I think the person who is supposed to know these things is on long term sick leave and in their absence, the head asked me to take over some of the responsibilities. She does some herself and the head of year six does some. It's all a bit half arsed to be honest.

Perhaps I've been given the 'title' because someone has to be the named co-ordinator.

It's certainly very unusual!

Instead of saying that the privately educated are over-achieving, it's actually more pertinent to say that the state educated are under-achieving.

A friend of my son's is a bright, bright boy. Great at maths. He should be doing triple science and two maths for GcSE, or, better still, IGcSE, not 'Engineering' and 'Travel and Tourism'. His parents are not well-educated themselves and work in low-paid jobs, thought they are extremely intelligent people. They were victims of state education themselves. They don't have the life experience to know that their son is being gulled. The school, essentially, is having them on in letting them believe that all subjects are equal. I dread to think what they will push him to take at A level and how that will limit his choices for university. That's another potential scientist or engineer possibly lost.