State school kids do better at university

[clemetteattlee]

here

90% private on my course in 1992. Four people ended up with firsts - we were all from state school.

Clemett, whilst I applaud your defence of the state system I fear that this sort of approach lets politicians off the hook. I attended state school and entered into a highly competitve profession and it was tough and imho heavily weighted in favour of more 'polished' people, namely privately-educated people.

I think, instead of coming up with anecdote after anecdote about how well some state educated people have done we should concede that private education usually does provide greater benefits than state and then demand from our politicians and educators that state education be brought up the same standard (or at least die trying).

redridinghoodie are you suggesting that universities shoulda ctively discriminate against children who didn't have the chance to revceive a private education?

The idea that universities are purely there for good grades is ludicrous: theya re social engineers, whetehr we like it or not. The poeple that make the policies know full well that admitting someone from a state background gives them a chance of earning and achieveing way above what they might otherwise get, and academics I know state they prefer state students becuase they are less needy overall in terms of being self sufficient in study: someone who ahs been coached within an inch of their life to get AAA is not going to do better than someone who only ahd themselves and got BBB.

However I don't like the idea either that bright independent school kids should be apssed over in favour of state, that's clearly not fair either.

Whilst the obvious answer is to have a decent state system in the first palce even that wouldn't help kids whose parents are a bit shite when it comes to support (my own Dad wanted me in work for 16; I am studying for an MA).

So what is the answer?

Well there you go- hard isn't it? I know of a school mentoring system that helped kids getting c's and b's by giving them a student volunteer to support them to get their grades up: had the funds pulled (in actuality when i worked on it we were getting students achieving D's as teachers felt them more needy anyway, but that was school manipulation).

At the moment, university education is in a state of flux: many students are adults who missed out under old style education but were perfectly capable and as such grades and stats are all a bit wonky anyway. If you looked at the grades DH had on entering Uni and comapred them to a private kid then you might think it was discriminatory to let him in but you couldn't tell he ahs been running a related business for soem time now and that counts for a lot.

In a few eyars time, when things settle and whatever cost cutting initiatives we have coming have settled, what i would like to see is an environment where everyone who applies with grades over a base level set to the course or significant life experience is invited for decent, extended interviews and practical assessments (which may mean essyas, debates etc as well as practical in relation to art / engineering / technologies etc).

Yes you will still get coaching but experienced admissions bods can tell a lot by attitude and interaction abilities.

Dh had soemthing similar and managed to get a place on a competitive course where the kids laughed at him at first but you know what? he's getting grades up to 100% when many of the traditional candidates are scraping (if that).

It shouldn't matter whetehr the person is state, private, home or alien educated: just whether they are bright and keen, with the aptitude for the field.

Can't we just get them polished in the state sector then? WHy can't they speak properly? Their grammar and accents could be pulled up when poor but may be the teachers in state schools don't have the right accents. May be compulsory elocution lessons on PGCEs, forced requirement to modify a regional accent before you get your PGCE, ensuring they aren't too left wing at state school teachers seem to be who then put off able students from pursuing good careers in a capitalist economy... I'm enjoying writing this.. what else?

Polish the children - get them used to meeting all kinds of people, learn how to shake hands with cleaners and Kings, make sure they have broad general knowledge, know the National Anthem by heart by age 10, make them sing complicated latin anthems in parts by the age of 10 with long proper choir rehearals not dumbed down happy clappy this is all we are good for because we're state school and couldn't possibly cope with something difficult stuff.

Get them better at sports. Most of the UK olympic squad went to private schools. Force the state school teachers to stay in school until 6 like private schools to take sport every day. Make the children dio a sport every day and Saturday.

Gosh I have loads of ideas. I should be Michael Gove.

Most Staff in state schools are in until 6pm to be honest Xenia and there is sport after school every day.

I am all for producing polished students from state schools but it is not about accent .( I have a regional accent to go with my Oxbridge First and left wing tendencies!)

Xenia you are trying to hard to be controversial - which is a shame as you make a good general point about the need for state schools to look at what it is that indepdendent pupils have and try and emulate that where it is appropriate.

some state schools are as you say Xenia but not all

My kid's school is often actively chosen by aprents who would otherwise use independent; good stste education that is free does exist.

And I went to a shit state school yet I speak well (when I want- I also have a yokela ccent when on the farm, I have the ability to choose). Becuase my Mum taught me to speak well.

And absolutely I agree that schools in general could do a lot more WRT to pulling kids up on how they speak- I frequently do that with mine, and get glared at by the teachers. Parents who are willing can resolve most inadequacies in an education though.

And then you come to aprents who are not willing or indeed able: quite a lot of aprents who are not able to help their children speak properly, look confident or spell. Shame then that a good deal of teh FE college support that used to be offered to such aprents is trickling away into the funding gap 9friend's DH, who has the most obvious case of dyslexia but mamanged tor each a high level in the Army and is struggling to match that in RL was recently refused due to funding)

I don't want all private kids in high jobs, I want people representing all backgrounds: and indeed in my last role had I walked into the houses I worked in with a posh voice and posh name (I used my maiden name as it had council estate kudos LOL) i'd not ahve ahd a chance in getting them to accept me. Equally though there are skills and experiences that the independently educated might bring that also matter, ease and self possesion being common although not exclusively linked IME.

The bright state kids willa ctively seek out the help if it is there- I spent my childhood in a library. If there are summer schemes for potential students from sink schools, or evening revision classes, tehy will attend them. That narrows the gap massively but it's not there now. Sadly. I suspect it would more than pay for itself in tax revenue long term. Even the confidence boost from having a teacher say 'You're bright enough, have you thought about this summer club?' would work wonders for some kids from negative backgrounds.

joni, I have spent my career doing the two concurrently - championing the wonderful students who I have taught, and campaigning vicorously for improved standards and opportunities.

Xenia, I have to assume you are joking

I haven't laughed so much for a long time Xenia

The state school nearest my house lets children out just after 3pm - a scondary comp. It moved its GCSE grades up from 22% A- C to 34% last year.

Well it might be about accent. Has the GOvernment studied that? If your accent determines what jobs you get then surely it's as important to help children have better accents as much as havig GCSEs. If it is just a question of accent, clothes and soft things like that, then that might be very cheap to correct in schools.

Do we have studies which show how accent correlates to income in later life?

I'm glad to hear that clemett.

The state school nearest my house lets children out just after 3pm - a scondary comp. It moved its GCSE grades up from 22% A- C to 34% last year.

Well it might be about accent. Has the GOvernment studied that? If your accent determines what jobs you get then surely it's as important to help children have better accents as much as havig GCSEs. If it is just a question of accent, clothes and soft things like that, then that might be very cheap to correct in schools.

Do we have studies which show how accent correlates to income in later life?

Oh and you can't make a lot of older state school kids do sport on a Saturday becuase they are working. Way it is.

But an attitude adjustment to sports would be good- our school has a number of national level competitors but the new head has cancelled any leave applied for to participate in competitions. Seems riodiculous to me, a good aspect of indie education IME is emphasising the value of different skill sets.

Now if it were mine (irt sort of is- mine compete at a high level but in a very obscure field) I would 9and will) say no chance and tkae them out anyway, becuase I think the experience of competition and self esteen derived from it matters. Most won't though becuase theya re scared of the confrontation.

Come on Xenia. I have a strong, regional (northern) accent but I also speak clearly and correctly. There are women i know with 'lovely' accents who quite frankly I can wipe the floor with academically. Are you honestly saying that they are more deserving of a good career simply because they sound different to me?

Xenia, you are bang on about the sport thing though

Our local Comp is top 140 in UK, top ten in Wales: a lot better than some Privates.

But I am disamyed that the outgoing Head has typed 'ors' when he meant 'ours' on the homepage: maybe it's that sort of thing that matters? attention to detail.

For my schooldays though it was about expectation: I did well by not getting pregnant by 16 tbh, people actually congratulated me on that- nobody certainly though education was something I should look at long term, girls getting straight A GCSE's even in the 80's left school to go to the factories then (usually- I do have a friend who is a chemist, of the research variety).

I am great beleiver in keeping kid's expectations high and that believing in them makes a difference.

We close at 4 officially but everynight there are kids on site doing sport, weekends as well.

I think Xenia's point that state schools should look at the social skills needed for the working environment that some independent schools teach is a good one.

I recently was at a large event where pupils at a wide number of schools were presenting work. I was very impressed by the good manners of the pupils at one particular school - all the pupils at the event were talented and I loved talking to them, but the teachers at this particular school had clearly told the pupils that they should introduce themselves properly and shake hands with their 'customers', as you would in a professional setting. I was very chuffed that this school was our local comp.

Xenia what utter rot you talk. I have met so many people like you in my field (law) who are shocked to find DH and I weren't privately educated. They seem to think those of us that went to state schools slouch around in hoodies and can't string a sentence together. Its just so insulting. To be brutal DH and I have done the best professionally and materially in our group of friends - they are all privately educated some at top public schools and we both went to our local state schools. You simply cannot make sweeping judgements as you do it is ill informed and deeply annoying.

SanctiMoanyArse, universities do allow state pupils with lower grades than private school students - they are already discriminating in favour of state school students. The issue is that the balance, from the stats in this report, has clearly swung too far.

Accent no longer matters as much as it did. The "Tim Dim But Nice" world is diappearing and we even have socialists like Blair trying to hide his posh accent and affecting a mockney accent to fool the peeps. Is is talent that counts in most fields nowadays, because we are competing internationally and our competitors don't give a hoot about class. The public schools don't excel at the 100,, 200m, 400m , 800m etc. People like Mo Farah and the majority of our other fanous athletes didn't go to public school. The public schools do well at rare sports that nobody else enters.

The flannel of the hoorays is not valued too much nowadays. However, public schools are still very good. Redridinghoodie makes some excellent points about the socialist social engineers trying to put a spanner in the works, whilst simulataneously sending their own children to public schools, as in the champion of the working classes, Diane Abbott.

The spoon-feeding thing at independent schools is rot IME. DH and I both went to them, and the big things we were taught were:

How to spell and punctuate
How to open your mouth and express a coherent opinion (regardless of whether it was 'right' or 'wrong')
How to write well and form an argument, regardless of subject matter.

I was the only one of my cohort to get a First, and was the only one who was privately educated. I don't think it was wholly and solely because of my private education, but I think that played a big part in it. I then did a PhD, and there's not much spoon-feeding involved in those. Plus I think that private schools give you an enormous advantage for life, not just for university exams. My children go to private schools (one on a scholarship). I would sell my soul rather than have them at state schools. I'm a SAHM, so don't remotely care about the earning potential that Xenia is so keen on.

I'm not sure why so many of you are laughing at Xenia, though. I'm laughing at whoever said that state school pupils 'um' and 'ah' because they don't want to debate with private school thickos.

As always this is not a debate between the state and independent sector but a divide between good and bad state schools. Some state schools spoon feed their students ( I know I have taught in a state grammar that did this) as do some independent schools.

Students that come from good schools will usually do well whatever sector

Xenia's suggestion of knowing the National Anthem by heart by age 10 is enough in itself to put me off any educational policy she promotes.

That and her appalling sentence construction a few posts back, that 'private school pupils are better all round educated'.

I went to a pretty ordinary comprehensive, and at least I can write correctly (as well as getting a good degree from a RG University, a higher degree, and having had two successful careers so far!

I can't see a problem with universities discriminating in favour of state school pupils - they receive public funds, so why shouldn't they be expected to help those of us who cower in the corner speaking in our bad accents with no idea of how to interact with people.

Incidentally my not very good Catholic comp taught me the same things as Arthuria. My personal suspicion is that if you could scrap every fee paying and selective school tomorrow, and just send every kid to their local comprehensive, you would find that in general it was still the same children doing well because as others have said their parents make more of a difference.

Private schooling probably just accentuates the inequalities that are there already. And I know lots of children who can't afford it benefit from scholarships - but we're not talking about massive numbers are we, and that still only benefits the people whose parents think it's important to try to get into the "best" schools.

Isn't that part of the key to this? I actually tought state school pupils would be taught the national anthem by heart when I wrote that. Are we saying they don't?

Surely there are basic things most prep schools teach that the state sector doesn't that could be easily copied to make the state schools better. Heighten the expectations as I suggested above. Why should state schools be a year or two behind private preps? Simply because of lower expectations, not realising what children can learn if given the chance. There are probably few other countries on the planet where children don't learn the national anthem in schools and that was one tiny broad education thing which I think most prep schools do and few state schools. I was just picking music because it's my interest and thedifferences with it illustrate so well the big gulf between private and prep schools.

(above - whether it WERE right or wrong rather than whether it was? Or am I wrong? I labour at home to preserve the subjectve and I hope all mumsnetters do - make it your aim for this week. Correct the children if they say "if I was you" rather than "if I were you". We much more vigilance at home and school in these matters.

So if doing well in careers is in huge part due to accent might the Government be better off with elocution lessons for children rather than bothering about some other things? Perhaps we need a recession list of entirely free of charge things state schools can do to give their pupils the confidence and polish of private school pupils.

Whilt I accept genes and parental influence count for much any of us with teenagers know that peer pressure then take over. If everyone at school speaks well (and I'm not suggesting my children or their peers did in my view, far too many likes etc even in the private sector) and they are all going to RG universities to read proper subjects then you're less likely to leave at 16 to go on the dole. Choose their peer group with care otherwise you might lose all those years of your early supposed influence over them. I see it time and again.