'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

[maverick]

If you scroll down to igb's posting on this thread/page you'll see he has strong views on home education. He believes that 'the purpose of education is to protect children from their parents' prejudices', and therefore, 'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

Any thoughts?

www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10249&start=75

Institutions at their best help people to behave in desirable ways for the common good. The trouble is that we need to understand why we have those institutions, and why the constraints they seemingly place upon us in fact increase our personal freedom.

Think of marriage, the human institution par excellence. If people understood what marriage was really about, there wouldn't be nearly as many divorces - and there is good data coming out of the US on the falling divorce rate among the most educated, who have learnt from the experience of their elders and are entering marriage informed about its constraints and benefits.

I haven't had any difficulty adapting to life in society!

I think I'll make my main point again for the last time and go away.

There are many things to be gained from HE. But there are downsides. It doesn't do anyone - particularly people thinking of embarking on the HE journey - any good to sweep the downsides under the carpet. Knowledge is power. It doesn't detract from the wonderful experience most people find HE to be to have a look at the potential problems.

And a final plea to HEer on here. Please don't imply that parents who don't make the same choices as you are somehow letting their children down. We aren't. We're doing it differently. We may have actively chosen not to HE, we may not have even considered it - but we are doing the best for our children. Just as you are.

"But I do believe that we all need a deep understanding of the institutions we live within (for our own benefit) so that we can navigate them to our own advantage."

BonsoirAnna - I don't think that being in the school system necessarily gives this understanding. I'm not even sure it's necessary at all.
Not everyone who comes out of school at 16 has an understanding of institutions. I think I'd hazard a guess that most don't.
I also know of people who have left school and are averse to any kind of institution. Some setting up their own businesses and becoming successful that way.
So I don't agree that by going through an instutionalised system you will understand it and conversely that you can't understand institutions by not having been in them from the age of 4/5yo.

But juuule, you cannot possibly be successful in business without understanding institutions! A business is a human institution - and has to interact with plenty of other human institutions!

Whathassixty - I think the reason is that by giving a less than positive opinion on HE, it could be seen that the implication is that things would have been better if school-ed. So to bring some balance it is explicitly pointed out that the less than positive comment needn't only apply to HE.

The people that I'm talking about with successful businesses pay other people to deal with the institutional side while they get on with the work their business entails (various tradespeople). Granted they do pick up some tips and understanding along the way and develop that understanding as they go along.

Seeker - I agree with your last post.

I am also not in a position to infer that someone who doesn't choose HE is letting their child down. Some of my children are at school

Very good points Riven.

juuule - sorry, but you really are contradicting yourself. All businesspeople subcontract parts of their work, but being in business is running an institution!

Okay - seems like my interpretation of an institution is somewhat different from yours.

These are self-employed people arranging their own hours etc.

I shall now go away and consider why my interpretation differs from yours and what school has to do with it all, anyway.

but makeup and waxing are not instituions, riven. i think you are deliberately missing the point bonsoiranna is making.

BonsoirAnna but surely the fall of divorce rates amongst the educated has something to do with people feeling more fulfilled in their working life doing a job they enjoy and trained to do -usually respected professions?

No stacking shelves in supermarkets and early morning cleaning for them.

Then marrying someone on a similar educational scale after first pursuing their further education - they can then enjoy the trappings of a professional life within their marriage.

Money worries,alcoholism and abuse are more common in the lower working classes and possibly less educated people and this in itself gives rise to unhappy marriages and ultimately divorce.

Could it also be that many people are choosing not to marry and therefore those that 2 remain together from absolute love and because they carried that commitment?

I cannot see how this 'debate' can now involve marriage and education?.

No nickschick - it is nothing to do with those things - it is quite a well-researched area and I will try to find a link that explains it. It really is to do with being properly informed about the rights and responsibilities, constraints and advantages of the institution of marriage.

ok

'This is one of the frustrating things about trying to discuss HE properly - nothing that isn't completely positive about HE is allowed to go by without something negative being said about schools - why? It's not a competition where at the end of the thread someone is going to declare school or HE the winner. It derails the discussion to keep turning it back to that all the time.

This is my point exactly. I find it a fascinating subject-this thread has been quite refreshing in that no one has taken each of my posts line by line and torn it to shreds or told me that I shouldn't post.....yet! They have used it more as a debate and it is very interesting-with things that I hadn't even thought about.

The main reason I get involved in the first place is for the reason stated by seeker-that by sending my DCs to school I am somehow damaging them and that because they HE (and have read the 'right' books)they are much better parents, and that I want my DCs to be churned out of an institution having had all individuality knocked out of them and no ability to think for themselves-fit only to work in a call centre!
I haven't sent them to school on a whim. I loved it as a DC, still have friends made at school (even though we now live 100s of miles apart)and have appreciated all the people, different ideas, and opportunities that have come their way. Because their cousins are HEed they know it is a possibility and they have all rejected it.
I don't think that people HE on a whim but I don't think that being a parent automatically means that you are capable of providing a stimulating environment for HE.

I think that some DCs and parents are well suited to HE -it isn't a competition with schools-it is an alternative.

OK, I am someone who is right in the middle of the HE/school debate at the moment. And I hope I can see both sides.

My 8yo dd has Asperger's and had a really terrible time at school. No matter how hard we tried, we couldn't get the school to support her. She was really suffering, so we withdrew her in January this year.

She really thrived away from school -her anxiety was much reduced and she generally improved across the board. I enjoyed it, although I admit that I had underestimated how much work was involved.

Then, last month, she threw us a curve-ball. She wanted to return to school because she missed having friends around her every day. We were totally gobsmacked and unprepared for this. However, although there is a very active HE community close by, the fact that we live where there is virtually no public transport and I don't drive meant that we really struggled to access a lot of the activities.
I felt that we had failed her, because we hadn't worked hard enough on the socialising aspect. I had assumed that she needed less social stimulation because of her Asperger's, but I had got it wrong.

However, a fantastic array of groups and activities were available to those who chose to attend and the groups worked hard to arrange a variety of stimulating events which the children were very lucky to be involved in.

I believe that the child's wishes have to be taken seriously. We have found a very small, supportive school for dd and she will start there in September. However, I am really nervous because I know what the effects of the strict timetable of school will have. She has a lot of other issues and I worry that school won't be able to give her the amount of help she needs.

However, she has been on both sides of the fence, so I feel that we have to let her make this move. I am willing to give this new school a chance, because I recognise that not all schools are bad. On the other hand, I have met some wonderful HEdders, who provide a stimulating education for their children. And there have been one or two who I have secretly raised my eyebrows at,for various reasons But I did that at the school gate, too - no doubt plenty of people judged me, too.

None of us can say what is right for another person's child. Situations are complex and there are positives and negatives to school and HE. There is no 'right' choice, just what is best for your own child.

I agree that there can be a view amongst some HEdders that all schools are bad and that there are no negative comments allowed about HE. But this could be due to HEdders constantly having to justify and defend their choices -I went to hell and back when we de-regged dd, because it isn't 'the norm'.

What do you think about the OP, siblingrivalry? Do you think that people who HE (and I entirely sympathise with your reasons for doing so) should be "inspected" or should they just be left to their own devices?

Personally, I think that their should be an element of inspection -I may get flamed for that! But I don't agree with 99.9% of Badman's recommendations as they stand. When I read the initial report in June, I was literally open-mouthed and incredulous.

I submitted an educational philosophy to the LA, which is the current requirement here. I wouldn't have had a problem with them coming out for a meeting to discuss the way I had chosen to educate dd.

I wouldn't mind a yearly review and keeping records of work/activities, as that would be compatible with how we worked. But I can see how hard Badman could make it for autonomus HEdders -record keeping etc is just not compatible with their chosen route, in many cases.
(For the record, I am pro-autonomy, it just didn't work for dd).
With regards to safeguarding, as a former nursery nurse who worked for social services, I find it difficult to advocate no checks at all -but that's my own view and coloured by some of the cases I saw in my career. But it shouldn't be just HEdders who are singled out. All of the cases I was involved in were with pre-schoolers who attended nursery.

I think it is nearly impossible to reach a compromise when Badman's recommendations are so extreme, though.

That seems a very well reasoned post siblingrivalry. I hope that the return to school goes well.
I can understand why HEer get defensive about their choice-to a certain extent everyone gets challenged on their choices, but it isn't so bound up with who you are. However, what HEeers don't realise is that the defensiveness and the continual criticism of schools is the very thing that makes people anti HE. I have learned a lot from these threads and the most interesting have been what is good about HE and not what is bad about schools, that is irrelevant. (I switch off party political broadcasts when they spend the time saying what is wrong with the other party-I leave it on when they say what is good about their party-and the HE debate is similar,knocking schools is a real turn off).
It should be possible to talk about HE without a mention of school.
I am all for regulation-but not under the present proposals. We could do with a national debate on the purpose of education first!

ZZEnagain, Im in Japan where kids start school at 6/7. There is strong case for HE in this country because the school system is extremely rigid and stifles creativity. Its all about rote-learning and tests then the kids go to "cram schools" after school. I think the whole system would stifle a childs desire to learn.
HOwever, the pre-schools and primary schools here are fantastic. There is the idea here that children are going to have to grow up and join the boring world of study and work someday, so they might as well have a childhood. There are lots of Montessory pre-schools and primary schools and basically kids have lots of fun. The shit only really hits the fan when they go to junior high at the age of 12. So then would be a good time to take your child out of school and HE.
I would like to believe that about 90% of a child`s interest in learning comes from the parents anyway. They will be interested in reading books if they see their parents reading books. Likewise with musical instruments or by seeing their parents studying something just for fun. So as I said before, I will send my kids to school for the social life so they can "have their friends around them all day" even though I know their interest in certain subjects will probably be stifled there. I hope that I can provide a home environment that can balance out the schools "undoing" of their motivation.

Sakura - while I don't think that the French school system is as rigid as the Japanese, it certainly tends to stifle creativity and imagination.

I do feel that there are lots of things that one can do at home with children to develop their creativity and imagination, however.

Yes, I think there is lots you can do to influence the child at home.
There is no point sending your child to a Montessori pre-school and primary school if you are quite a rigid sort of person at home.
And likewise, if your child goes to a school which is quite rigid I believe it can be balanced out by the parents personal attitudes towards learning and behaviour. I honestly think that the <span class="italic">parents</span> are the key to a childs motivation to learn rather than the school.
So while I completely understand that HE allows the child the space to learn, I think that for me the benefits of school outweigh HE (unless I can be persuaded differently), not least because it will give me the time to work on my own studies, work and fields of interest, which will then in turn influence my children into understanding how you put your learning into practice in adulthood.

Interesting how people want a discussion on home ed to focus on the negatives! I mean do home edders go on the school threads and children starting school threads and demand that parents discuss the negatives of school?? Demand to know whether parents have made provision for all the perceived ways in which school will not provide for them and then completely discount all the positives that parents of schooled children come out with about the schools??

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't invalidate it!

And you know what, there are a few reasons I can think of why this area is overwhelmingly pro-home ed and that is, for one, it's the home ed section! Also people posting here without questions are probably quite happy and content with it! And finally, it's not like it's not all been done before, not only online, but in real life where people are incredibly opinionated even if they have no clue about home education and have no issues with waxing lyrical about the harm and disservice you are doing your child.

And not only are we supposed to fulfill the things one would expect such as facilitating education and socialisation, but we're also apparently supposed to banish any regret for the rest of ours or our children's lives!