'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

[maverick]

If you scroll down to igb's posting on this thread/page you'll see he has strong views on home education. He believes that 'the purpose of education is to protect children from their parents' prejudices', and therefore, 'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

Any thoughts?

www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10249&start=75

Thanks so much to you all for your advice sorry i dissapeared for a while. All those things you said are very helpful. I am hoping that it will be the right decision for us. I had thought that she was OK in school but we have had more time to talk over the holiday.

To my mind giving a DC an autonomous education means that if they want to learn with a teacher and other DCs you let them do it that way, or if they want to make discoveries for themselves you let them do it that way.It gets back to one size doesn't fit all and one way isn't best. HE is just another educational choice with good points and bad points, the same as comprehensive education, selective education, private education, Steiner schools etc. Nothing is ever perfect.

good luck with it araminta. I should think it would be a very positive experience alround. The more I read about HE and the more I evaluate my own and my dd's experiences of school and those of dc I know, the less enamoured I am of the whole concept of schooling and I find myself strongly attracted to HE generally, although for me not autonomous learning (not purely autonomous learning at least).

I will I am sure HE for a time at some stage. The only thing you would need to think about probably is good music tuition and sport training, unless unlike me you felt up to doing that yourself. Then again when you think about it, music and sport are often not especially well taught at schools. You do generally need to find music teacher beyond the curriculum and a club where dc are actually trained in the skills needed for a particular sport. I expect your girls already have established friendships which shouldn't be a huge problem to maintain whether you go to HE organisation-run activities or not.

Do report back if you engage on HE in the end. I am sure the private school option is always there to go back to if you find it does not work for you.

interesting to read your views seeker, thanks for coming back and sharing them. I for one appreciated hearing them. Would you say your own experience of HE was a child-led autonomous style learning (I wonder if we are thrashing this autonomous thing a bit on the thread? what do you all think?)

Just curious

"Nothing is ever perfect."

That's true.

I would agree that, for some, there are downsides to different types of education but it varies with each individual's situation. But all the educational choices should be available including autonomous education. This works for many people and should not have restrictions and checks imposed on it (which would effectively destroy it) by people who don't understand how it works.

Just because someone can't see how a particular way of education would work for their child/family doesn't mean that you are in a position to declare that it wouldn't work for any child/family. Particularly when some children have already been shown to be successful by that method.

I agree with you absolutely that autonomous learning has a place and I also agree with your views on not restricting it.

so what do autonomous educators see as a solution to this whole situation at the moment where the govt. is wanting checks, controls, interventions?

Hello Seeker
I am Julienoshoes? elder daughter.
I was home educated from 11-18. These are my perspectives on your comments.
I am not saying my experience is the same as every other autonomously home educated person. It is obviously not the same as your experience. However I believe my experiences are similar to a great many of my home ed peers.
Having been in school, I do think I can see both sides of this discussion

You said
"You don't learn how to deal on a day to day basis with people you have nothing in common with, and probably don't like. This applies to peers and adults."

For me, it was a huge bonus to get away from the day to day grind that was my experience in school. I found some people (children and a few teachers) to be bullies and unpleasant.
I know that if I had to be with people like that every day at work, I would change my job.
However there are people in the HE groups that I mixed with that I had little in common with and one or two I didn't like. Ditto there were people we met who didn't understand HE and made lots of derogatory ignorant comments about it. I think everyone gets these situations outside of HE or school at some point don't they?

Learning to get on with all sorts of people, from all backgrounds, religions and viewpoints, was one of the things that was much better experienced outside of school, rather than in school where I was mostly with the same bunch of people of my own age and background (coming from the same area) as me.

"You don't learn that you sometimes just have to get on with stuff whether you want to or not."

This isn't my experience either.
Life itself teaches you that, sometimes things don't go the way you want it to. However I did learn that once I had chosen to commit myself to something, it was up to me to see it through, otherwise I would be letting people down.
I can see that I did have a hell of a lot more of these experiences in school-but I don?t personally see that as advantageous.

"You don't have to learn things which you think are dull but which turn out to be
brilliant."

I can see that could be true for some people. I genuinely don't think it was true for me-but then I was so busy experiencing so many other brilliant things that I was really interested in, that I would never had the chance to be involved in at school.
For example, I did sailing up to a qualification I would never had the opportunity to reach if I had remained in school-and ended up spending two long summers sailing around the British Isles-not something on offer in landlocked Worcestershire when I was in school!
I became very interested in Women?s and Children?s rights and animal rights too. I was involved in helping to run workshops for women who experience Domestic Violence, when most of my schooled peers hadn?t even touched on the subject. I helped co launch a Dyslexia Charity, I am involved with, alongside an International expert in that area.
I could go on and on-these are just a couple of examples that I can think of, off the top of my head. I?m not saying that other people would think they were more valuable than schools subjects, just that I did. My HE peers have had expeiences not offered in school. Maybe it's just swings and roundabouts?
Or maybe I was just too busy enjoying my education to notice that I was missing out on such things?

"You don't have a mixed bag of mates. You also don't have enemies that you have to learn to rub along with."

Oh I don't know. I have a huge mixed bag of mates! Much bigger than my friends (who are still my friends) who went through school. Maybe this was because of the effort my mother put in to take us to local and national camps and gatherings as well as local HE meetings? I have a huge number of friends from all walks of life. All ages too! Christians, Muslims, Pagans, Buddhists. I have stayed with HE families where there is masses of money and families where there is none. My friends come from Travelers families and professional families and practically every other family background besides! All sorts.
There were a couple of people that I hated when I was younger, that did come into our HE circle frequently, but time has gone by and we have moved on and it?s all water under the bridge to them and me.

As a family we have tried to live consensually (since we discovered autonomous education and living and have been journeying down that path ever since) This is still the way I try and live my life now I am living miles away from home and working and sharing a house, with none HE friends.
I have to tell you that this was a hell of a journey for my parents-especially for my dad!

Again this is not meant to deny your experiences, but because this is your reality doesn't make it mine, or my autonomously HE peers.

My siblings and I really enjoyed our autonomous home based education and will all be doing the same for our own children-as long as the Badman recommendations don?t spoil it all.

I am not trying to say that there were no issues with home ed. Not having friends very close geographically when I was a teen could have been a problem for us for instance.
However I do genuinely believe that we were in a much better position to deal with any issues when they came along in HE, than we ever were or would have been in school. (We arranged for our HE friends to come and stay for days on end, or for us to stay with other families, we helped Mom organise a HE meeting with lots of outdoor activities and challenges that would attract other HE youngsters of our age, from miles around and of course as I said we spent summers in fields at camps and gatherings in the company of masses of HE teens)

That is my reality and what I believe about the autonomous home education we experienced and what I will strive to give to my own children in the furture.

I do hope I haven't given any offence, I don't mean to. Just meant to address the issues you raised from the point of view of someone else who was home educated.

very interesting post julienoshoes elder daughter.

zz thanks so much for your input. dd not currently in private school I think that was someone else. She is in the worst comp in the area. She does ok and the school offers so much to them really. However, there are a few problems i was not aware of. We are planning to talk it through and visit the local home ed group. She may also have a chance at a grammar school.

A very interesting post jnshoes elder daughter-but I have always thought from her posts and advice that your mother is a really good example of HE at its best.My whole point is that everyone isn't lucky enough to have that experience and some HEers are very poor. Some are doing a good job but can't sort out the social side-it isn't always easy.
It is like any form of education-I could tell you about my DSs comprehensive schools outdoor centre and the wonderful opportunities for caving, kayaking etc and people would immediately post and say that it isn't representative and their state school doesn't have an outdoor centre.
There is always the whole range from excellent to dire in any form of education. People are allowed to say anything they want about state/private education, but you are in deep trouble if you suggest that HE can be done extremely badly there seems to be the view that any parent can provide a better experience than school and every parent can't.

Sorry-I re read it and thought it badly written! I seem to be having problems with punctuation and apostrophes today not to mention choice of language! Some parents, who choose to HE, make a very poor job of it IMO. (only some -not all.)

But I can see it being quite difficult for someone to judge whether a poor job is being done or not? Particularly if that person is more familiar with the school model.

With hindsight JNS is regarded as an example of good home-educating. Would this have been the case had she been assessed years ago when her dd couldn't read by the age of 8 which I believe is what Ed Balls is proposing as one measure of HE suitability?

My personal view is that JNS would always have been regarded as an example of good HEing by the authorities despite her DD not reading. My SIL is judged good and her DS couldn't read at that age. I know I am judgemental, but I can think of some HEers where I wouldn't leave my dog with them-never mind a DC! It is like any form of education you can find examples of excellence and examples of very poor practice.I just can't see why HEers are only too happy to point out how dreadful school is and yet, only twice on these threads, have I ever known anyone admit that HE can be bad.

Maybe it's because for most people who post, HE is going well for them and they don't know of anyone who they consider is doing a poor job of it. If that is the case then they can't make it up just to agree with any negatives on here.

I've found that home-ed can be difficult at times but then that's true of most things. It's definitely not handed to you on a plate.

I would just find that I would be much more pro HE if there wasn't the attitude:
school=bad
HE=good.

It isn't true and it isn't as simple as that.

I am like a dog with a bone about the schools are good for training call centre workers remark - I wish so much that hadn't been said!

Anyway - moving on.

Thank you julienoshoes daughter - that was a very interesting post. It sounds as if you had a marvellous and stimulating education - as I know from reading your mum's posts on here before that you did - you were very skillful in your choice of parents - well done.

There are things that bother me still though. Of course you could have done the sailing and most of the other things you mentioned at school - people do it all the time. Please don't assume that school is a straightjacket! The other main worry I have is based on my niece's experience. She was autonomously home educated, and chose not to sit formal exams. So far, so good. She got a good job, enjoyed herself, contributed hugely to her social circle and to society in so many ways. Then she decided she wanted to be a barrister. In order to do that, she needed GCSEs and A levels - and they wouldn't accept anything else (I know - we tried). So she had to at huge personal cost get the bits of paper she needed - and she is now struggling to make it. She's a good 10 years older than her fellow "pupils", and she is in a position where she is fighting every step of the way. If only she had just "jumped through those academic hoops" at a time when her peers were doing it just in case she needed them in the future she would be far happier now. But there is no way that she could have foreseen needing them when she was 16 - surely foreseeing that sort of thing is the job of the guiding adult in your life?

JNS daughter here again.

If the Badman recommendations are accepted as Ed Balls and Baroness Morgan have indicated they will be, there is no way an education like ours would be acceptable.
My sister couldn't read until she was thirteen.
Mr Badman knew this-he talked extensively to my sister and yet he still made this recommendation.

My mother couldn't have provided a tweleve month plan-we didn't know what we would be doing from one week to the next often-as it depended on what we were interested in at that time.

And I would never have agreed to meeting people from the LA.
It would have made me physically sick at that time, I was so worried by such professionals, after my experiences at school. My parents got me out of that nightmare of being judged by others who simply didn't beleive in my SEN. To bring in these proposals will put many HE children with SEN back at risk of despair.
Home education saves so many lives!

How on earth does Ed Balls and co propose that they would make my very strong then teenage brother meet with the LA or show them any of his work!?

It occurs to me, I would have had to turn down the sailing trip that took me from south Wales, up to Northern England, Scotland and some of the Scottish Ildes, Northern ireland, Eire and the isle of Man-learning sailing and navigation skills along the way as well as a lot about the politics of the UK, geology and gepgraphy and lots of natural history, because by taking so many weeks away I wouldn't have been able to complete an agreed plan for my education!!

juuule is right. I don't know of any autonomously home educated young people who haven't receieved a suitable and efficient education.
And I won't make them up.

I know it can't be as simple as school bad HE good. School suits some people, but I know loads and loads of people who it didn't suit. I have HE friends with experiences similar to mine and I know that some of the friends left behind in school, have not done well at all.

I know probably hundreds of individuals who were home educated autonomously. It can't be co-incedence that we are all doing well in college/university/at work can it?

I'd agree with my mom, it should be left to families to make an informed choice about what education is right for their children..

"But there is no way that she could have foreseen needing them when she was 16 - surely foreseeing that sort of thing is the job of the guiding adult in your life?"

I disagree.
Deciding what qualifications to do-if any- and how to do them of the 'responsability' of the autonomously home educated young person with their parents input if required.

My life, my education, my 'response ablilty'

My parents had included me in all the decisions about my eeducation, from the day they deregistered us.

I knew about the pros and cons of my choices-because we talked extensively about them.

And I'm sorry School was a straight jacket for me-that is an excellent description of my experience!
I still have friends that I left behind there there is no way they had anything like the opportunities and freedoms that I had!

And for someone like my brother for instance, school expected him to achieve grade Ds at GCSE-if he worked really really hard. They had written him off at 13! That is what the 'guiding adults' thought of him!
For people like me and my siblings home education has enabled us to completely surpass anything we could have achieved in schools.

Seeker - these things happen. My dd was doing single science on recommendations from school. It was only when she visited college and stated that she wanted to study A'level chemistry with a view to medicine that we realised she needed at least, double science.

After enquiries into how she could do it (school had been doing modular double science and obviously she couldn't do modules which had already been done over the ppast year and half) we engaged a tutor and thankfully the school helped and were supportive she did an exam only double science option in 12 weeks and passed at A grade.
If we hadn't been proactive then school would have let it go and she would have missed her chance much as your relative did due to a school oversight.

As I said these things happen and when we realise then we need to address things at that point. I think it's up to your relative to not dwell on the feeling that she is behind in some way. Eventually things will even out.

JNS daughter - your posts read as if you think seeker has said you would have been better off at school, but I don't get that from anything she said. And from the way you talk about decisions about your education (your parents including you, you all talking extensively about them), it sounds as though you actually did have 'guiding adults' very helpfully involved. I suspect that parents who are very good at helping a child to learn thinking and decision-making skills are one of the key factors that make a difference to educational outcomes in any environment.

What I don't understand at all on this thread is the either/or argument. All children have many weeks holiday per year in which they can pursue their own interests. School alone is not going to be amazingly enriching but (as long as the school is good enough, and there are plenty of good enough schools) it will ensure children cover common ground that is necessary to become an independent learner while also ensuring that children become used to functioning in an institutional environment, with its advantages and constraints. Institutional environments are a necessary part of life in the developed world, and knowing how to navigate them to ones own advantage is a vital skill.

Children have masses of free time, after school and during holidays, to pursue interests and try things that school cannot offer. My DD, who is only 4.9, has had a full holiday so far and has done masses of things she cannot do at school and from which she has gained a lot of knowledge and new skills.

I agree with Bonsoiranna about children having to navigate institutions in their working adult life and school being an introduction to this. In this sense I would say that school is socially important.

But I also agree that autonomous education appears to work very well. My kids are still tiny but I look at examples of myself- there are things I have taught myself to do out of pure interest and enjoymemt and become very good at. Then there are things I was "taught" by a teacher, and any interest I might have had in the subject was crushed simply by going through the process of being taught (I`m thinking of piano lessons especially!.)

I will try to facilitate my childrens innate ability to learn autonomously when the time comes. But will send my kids to school for the social life. School was a laugh. I did experience bullying at one point but on the whole I would say it was worth going to school for the experience of getting to know people from all walks of life, understanding group dynamics along with a range of other things. I just truly hope they dont enter a school where homework will start eating into their nights and weekends because it is during these spare hours that they can really start to learn things...

"I think it's up to your relative to not dwell on the feeling that she is behind in some way. Eventually things will even out."

That's the thing you see, it won't. Not unless the system changes - and it's not going to! She isn't dwelling on the feeling that she is behind - she IS behind! And when she was 14 she made an autonomous decision that she wanted to be a shoe designer and therefore didn't need academic qualifications, only vocational ones that has had a major impact on her life.

I'm not saying that everyone should go to school or that school is better. I am saying that there are things that HE-ers need to be aware of, and which can't be brushed aside as unimportant. My niece's experience is as valid as anyone else's - and telling her that "Oh, it'll all be all right in the end - don't fret" would be frankly insulting!