'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

[maverick]

If you scroll down to igb's posting on this thread/page you'll see he has strong views on home education. He believes that 'the purpose of education is to protect children from their parents' prejudices', and therefore, 'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

Any thoughts?

www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10249&start=75

I completely agree with seeker that qualifications are a completely unavoidable part of life in the developed world.

It is naïve in the extreme to think that you will be able to prove your knowledge and skills to the world at large, and to open the gates for which you believe you are appropriately skilled, without the qualifications to prove those skills.

In the same way that I didn't realize that I loved playing hockey until I was 13.

You can only make decisions based on your experience - or on the experience of others.

At the moment my 13 year old dd wants to be a riding instructor, and she has found out what she need to do to get there. But based on her knowledge of what has happened to her cousin, she is very definite that she wants to do A levels as well, just in case. That is currently her decision, and one that she would have made whatever educational setting she was working in. But she couldn't have made that autonomous decision without her cousin's example in front of her. So as her parent I would have had to say something like "I know you want to follow a horsy career path - but a lot of girls your age do. I am not going to let you close doors in your future that you don't even know exist. I have 50 years of life experience - you have 13. On this occasion I know best."

I have read lots of posts from people who think their DC can walk into any job or training or course they like without qualifications just because they are an interesting, fully rounded person who has followed a different path from the norm. Of course there are the amazing success stories where people have done just this but it is misguided to think this will automatically happen. My DS1 went right through the education system, had the 'right pieces of paper',went to a Russell group university and got a degree in a science subject,he is intelligent, articulate, can talk to anyone, has played team sports all his life, is very much into outdoor pursuits and had leadership qualifications and did voluntary work...........then he met the real world-and it was tough,very tough, the world didn't owe him a living and they didn't want to know! He spent about 6months at home, getting more and more depressed as doors seemed to slam in his face. In the end he took a job that he didn't particularly want and luckily that acted as a stepping stone.
It is even tougher in the present economic climate and it makes sense to me to get some exams. DS2 left at 16yrs but he wouldn't have got his apprenticeship without his C grades in Maths and English-maybe he would have been able to talk his way into it but I doubt whether he would have got that far in the process unless he was known to the employer-and we didn't know any employers.
A friend's daughter has been shocked recently to see someone sorting applications-qualifications were looked at and the best were on one pile and the rest were rejected; she thought it dreadful that people had obviously spent so long writing them and they simply weren't read-not one word!
I don't think that people should go away with the idea that your DCs can 'wow'everyone with an interesting CV-I have been very shocked at the toughness of real life-it was much, much easier when I was at that stage. DS3 took 2 yrs and masses of applications to get a Saturday job.

"My niece's experience is as valid as anyone else's - and telling her that "Oh, it'll all be all right in the end - don't fret" would be frankly insulting! "

Seeker - in no way am I trying to belittle your niece's experience. Of course it's valid and I apologise if what I said came across as insulting.

But there are lots of people who change careers and have to gain a different bunch of qualifications. Not everyone is lucky enough to know what they want to do as a career. A friend of mine wanted to become a midwife. Her school qualifications were of no real use to her and she had to do an access course and then her degree. Another friends child did a degree in the area he thought he wanted to work in and then decided on a completely different direction. This meant that he needed to complete another 3year course.
It just seems to me that your niece may fall into this category. She wanted to do one thing and then discovered she was more interested in something else. While gaining certain A'levels earlier might have been beneficial, it sounds as though she will get where she wants to be in the end regardless.
She may be behind in terms of age for a while but will that be detrimental over her lifetime?

Obviously I don't know the details and circumstances so maybe talking rubbish in your niece's case so just to repeat - no offence intended.

I think that the difference is that if you are at school you get some qualifications-I think that we all know people who got the wrong ones and either couldn't do what they wanted or took longer to get there-it is only in HE that you can end up saying 'I don't need any so I won't take any exams'.

Can I ask a serious question?
DOnt home schoolers (especially women) worry that they might end up living vicariously through their children? I say mainly women because children basically lead by example and model their parents. I am a SAHM but I am conscious that I dont want my DD to see this as her main or only role in life, as a woman. So I make sure that I keep my mind active and busy in doing what Im good at and what I enjoy (in my case, writing and translating) and I want to return to the work when they are in school because I want DD to know that women need to be somewhat independant and self-defining and I want my son to know that women are not just there to look after their kids and house. I find this conflict hard enough and I intend to send my kids to school so Im wondering how on earth a home schooler can keep their identity. They mustnt have much time to pursue work or own interests. I just cant imagine ever being self-defining if I also had to spend all my intellect soaking up knowledge that was useful for my children rather than working on what I am interested in myself! That is the main reason I am willing to let the schools take up the slack. I think a big motivator is for kids to see their parents working and doing work they enjoy. If I have totally missed the mark please correct me. I am truly interested in this.

Not everyone in HE says that. In fact, there is a HE-exam group.

Not everyone who goes to school comes out with qualifications.

Sakura - I, too, am a SAHM. My children see me doing things that interest me. I'm not sure why you think that would be a problem.

I didn't say everyone in HE says that!! Some are very exam orientated. I said that it is only in HE that DCs have the option of no exams.

juuule - one problem that can occur if children have a SAHM who does things that interest her is that they may grow up believing that they are entitled to grow up staying at home and doing what they want all day...

There is a big difference between specific qualifications for a specific career and the generic sort of pieces of paper you need in order to do practically anything these days. My neice had to do GCSE English and Maths, then A levels before she could even be considered for a Law degree - and she had to do it while working full time to fund herself.

I'm not saying that this would apply to everyone, or that it should be an argument against HE. I am saying that it's something that people thinking about HE should know about. It may not seem important when you're starting out on the journey - but it can be heartbreakingly vital later in life.

One thing that HEers should bear in mind, which has some relevance to to Sakura's question, is that you have to think of the long term and just as a 16 yr old might want to work with horses but at 20 yrs become a dentist-the parent may be paasionate about it when the DC is 5 yrs but tired of it by the time they are 15yrs.
My SIL has this problem-she read all the books, her DSs weren't getting on at school for 2 different reasons-so she took them out and I would say that she was amazingly keen for about 6 yrs, less keen but ticking over for about another 4 yrs but she is quite open that 10 yrs down the line she wants freedom to follow her many different interests and the HE is a burden, but unfortunately her youngest is only 13yrs.Last time I mentioned this on an HE thread someone airly said 'send him to school'-as if this were an option! He is her DC who never went to school, never had the choice of going to school and so although the other 2 went back I don't think he ever will. He is happy at home, has a nice life in the country and wants to work with animals. It would be selfish in the extreme to HE because she wanted to do it and then tell DS3 he has to go to school because she doesn't want to do it any more.
She is resigned to continuing but her heart isn't in it. As an outsider I can tell the difference-DS3 isn't getting what DS1&2 got.

BonsoirAnna - While I do things that interest me, I also do things that I have to do as do most sah parents. So I'm not sure how that means my children would grow up "believing that they are entitled to grow up staying at home and doing what they want all day".
It has been enlightening, in fact, to at least one of my HE children just how much does need to be done during the day. Previously unobserved (possible assumption that the house fairies did it? ) as it was done while they were at school.

"I'm not saying that this would apply to everyone, or that it should be an argument against HE."

That's good to see Seeker, as I think the lack of qualifications could apply equally to HE or school.

really interesting thread and I wish i could contribute intelligently ... I just wanted to say that I agree with BonsoirAnna that parents who send their children to school still to a lot of home ecucation, and that is backed by research after research showing that family background is the single most important determinant of a child's academic success. Saying that parents who send their children to school delegate their responsibility to educate to the State is a bit like saying that WOHMs delegate their parenting to nannies and nurseries: not true, and frankly insulting.

moreover, it is obvious that people on here do a great job of HEdding their children but how can you assume that everyone will? I am sure there's plenty of mediocre or unsuitable parents HEdding their dcs out there (just as there's mediocre and unsuitable teachers in schools). And i don't think it is strange the State has an interest in protecting and safeguarding the children's interests to ensure they get a basic level of education. This is not the same thing as sayingh HE should be banned, or being against HE (which i am not incidentally).

finally i just have a point of personal interest which i'd be very interested in hearing about from HEdders: how do you prepare yourselves? I mean, i know that if i were to go down that route i'd have to gear myself up big time in all sorts of topics i know nothing about (I suck at science and history, for example)- just when and how do you have time to study?

Piscesmoon, I agree that you need to look at the longterm of HE. But if it becomes difficult for the parent for whatever reason then I would think they need to reassess to decide which method of education the child would benefit most from (as always the parent's responsibility to provide a suitable education). If, on balance, a school education would be more suitable then it might be more appropriate to make the decision to send the child to school. If the child would still benefit more from being at home even though the parent is not putting quite as much in as in the early days then there would be no harm continuing HE.

juule,
I mean, donT home schoolers worry about the same things that SAHMs worry about in the sense that we cant expect our kids to do as we say rather than do as we do? I dont want my daughter to look at me and think that theres no point in being highly educated as a woman if youre not going to put that into practice. It just seems that the things I struggle with as a SAHM (giving up a career and (albeit temporarily) unable to put my own education into practice through lack of time) will be exarcerbated if I then took it upon myself to educated my children as well. I completely agree that autonomous learning is the best way to learn but there are these other issues that keep cropping up.

TheMystic - "Saying that parents who send their children to school delegate their responsibility to educate to the State is a bit like saying that WOHMs delegate their parenting to nannies and nurseries: not true"

But it is true for the hours they are in school or with the nanny or at nursery.

I send some of my children to school. I have delegated their education to the school during their time there.

"to look at me and think that theres no point in being highly educated as a woman if you`re not going to put that into practice"

Why would she think that? I think education and being educated is very valuable and never wasted. I also think it is a great benefit to the child if their parent/s are educated. Education isn't wasted just because you are not out in the workplace being paid to use it.

Also, regarding those home schoolers who mentioned that their children can learn things about society that kids at school canT learn such as paying in shops and realising that the fairies donT come and do the housework: I do think these things are very important but I think a child can learn these things before the age of 5 or so. My DD is almost three and she regularly helps me with the housework and understands what is involved in cooking, shopping and cleaning. BUt I know that this side of things is easier for me because I live in a country where children don`T start school until the age of seven, so here you have a few more years to influence your children before they start full-time. PErhaps children start school far too early in the UK?

We live in one of the countries where school starts earliest (France, only beaten by Belgium) and my DD, who started school at 2.10, is a highly experienced shopper, housecleaner, cook etc etc. There really is masses of time in life for both

"That's good to see Seeker, as I think the lack of qualifications could apply equally to HE or school. "

Don't understand this - sorry.

juule, yes I agree with you on that. An education is never a waste and it is sad if a person`s worth is dictated by what she does. But I just have this nagging feeling that in the past a lot of intelligent women were educated but then simply channelled all that intellect and energy into their children or husbands by "helping"in his business and work, which is great and altruistic, but I want more for my daughter, because Iwant her to be unable to stand on her own two feet if she has to. I am totally dependant on DH at the moment and I am acutely concscious of this fact.

Seeker - I read your post as saying that not gaining certain qualifications by a certain age/stage shouldn't be used as an argument against HE.

I was agreeing and saying that not gaining certain qualifications could come about regardless of whether someone was HE or educated at school.

want her to be able