'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

[maverick]

If you scroll down to igb's posting on this thread/page you'll see he has strong views on home education. He believes that 'the purpose of education is to protect children from their parents' prejudices', and therefore, 'Home Schoolers should be treated robustly'

Any thoughts?

www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10249&start=75

I am interested in what you have to say Seeker and what you found negative about HE.

You see, there are a couple of things that I don't understand. How can it be too late? Do you mean to late to become a professional team sport player? Too late for what? I know of plenty of people who hated school sports but discovered a love of them later in life and now play on teams regularly. I dreaded team sports at school and still don't like them much now. My brother took up yoga at 29, discovered he loved it and trained with the best and became a yoga master. Surely it's very rare that something is too late if you miss it in your teens.

Of course there may be things you miss out on if you are HE just as there may be things you miss out on if you fo to school. There will be things that children at state schools miss out on compared with privately educated children and maybe vice versa. There are even differences between schools in the same area. Everybody can't do everything. It's a decision that has to be taken as to which option will provide the most suitable education for the individual child. That can only be done with information and knowledge of the child at the time. If it later turns out that the child would have liked to do things not available to them then hopefully the child would not be resentful due to knowing that the best was done for it at the time. And at that point they can then pursue their interest.

I would hope that one of the things I could impart to my children was that it's never too late to have a go at something and if you want it badly enough you will find a way to achieve it. They may not be olympic athletes or film stars or the next nobel prize winner but they can still go for what they are interested in.

I also suspect that sitting at home and learning at a very 'relaxed' pace is possibly better for some children than being in school even if their academic success ends up being well below that expected in schools. Mental well-being is high on my list of outcomes to be achieved.

I also agree with Riven when she says that by the age of 7 (could be a different age) a lot of school children are afraid to answer in case they get it wrong. I've seen mine extremely unsure and reluctant to answer because they were afraid to 'get it wrong'.

I've even had one child who wouldn't try at all. The reason - because if it was wrong then it was because he hadn't tried not because he'd failed.

HE is something I would consider, though currently my 3 are very very happy in school (gagging for the end of the holidays at the moment, in fact - 2 weeks to go!). But if they were unhappy or there were other probs I would certainly think about it.

I think my concern about the whole thing is I only know one family of homeschoolers personally. They are a bit "wierd" tbh! We are CHristian and know them via church from several years ago (in different towns now) but they have become very extreme and are now using an American Young Earth Creationist Curriculum which involves a lot of learning Bible verses off by heart, some exceptionally dodgy "science", and I'm not sure if it is any way related (suspect it is) they have a "traditional" family set up where the kids never spend a second out of their mum's presence and the girl does domestic chores but the boys don't - they get to watch tv or read while their dd helps in the kitchen - and I know from discussions that this is not cos her aptitude is in the kitchen, but because she is being 'trained' to be a 'good wife'.

This is my concern with HE - I think this is bordering on abuse. Most HE is great, I think. But religious fundamentalism is one of the potential issues.

I would like to take my 12 year old out of school. Do you think it is too late ? What do you do about GCSEs ?

Hello AramiteCane
I took my three childremn out of school aged 13, 11 and 8.

Youngest one is now just off to FE College to do an A level equivelant course, so have HE three through teenage years.

Definately not too late.

There are lots of ways home educators approach qualifications.

Some do GCSEs by distance learning packages a few at a time over a number of years.

Some download the curriculum from the AQA site, work through it and then enter as an external candidate (finding a place to do that is sometimes the tricky bit)

Some wait until the children are 16 and then do them at FE college (which is what my eldest did, then went on and did A levels at another FE college)

Some don't do them at all (my middle child got herself loads of working and life experiences and got herself a job on the back of that)

and others use the OU instead-this is what my youngest daughter did and increasingly I am hearing of more home ed youngsters going this way. My daughter did her first OU starter course aged 15. The OU are quite used to getting enquiries from HE families now I believe.

There is a emailsupport lists for home educators interested in ways of doing GCSEs etc

There are a couple of websites to give you general info about HE and some good books about it too.
There are a threads covering these basics that I'll bump up for you, save me rewriting everything.

Does that help?

I don't think it is ever too late to do anything. I was just completely put off team sports because the rest knew what they were doing and I was hopeless-it then becomes a vicious circle because no one wants you on their team so I counteracted by not wanting to be on their team. I suppose that if I was really keen I would have done it later but I don't know if I would have been different if I had started earlier or not-probably not but I will never know.

'Academically - well, HE children beat schooled children. Read the Rothermel report'

I have to admit to not having read the report but I have a problem with this statement. Most HEers don't want a visit from the LEA and they most specifically don't want their DC tested.I would imagine that the only ones who have been tested are the ones doing really well and so they would beat schooled DCs. Until all DCs are tested, on the same test-whether schooled or HEed-I can't see how you can tell. I can't see them all being tested.

It is never too late-Araminta-I expect someone will tell you about exams. My nephews did flexi schooling to do them but there are other ways.

I took so long to post I see that people have told you about exams!

piscesmoon - that's rather a contradictory opening post!

It becomes too late to participate in team sports when your peers have been learning them for several year and have had the time to practise sufficiently to either become good at them, or to know that they are never going to enjoy them and drop out.

Where does that leave the keen novice? Team-less! Ergo, it is too late to learn team sports.

opening paragraph

I have 3 ds all of them have been H.E at some point.

DS1 was withdrawn when a teacher bullied him onto the edge of a nervous breakdown hes now 15 has taken 13 gcses and is off to study 4 a levels at a top college.

Ds 2 was withdrawn when school thought he should have SN teaching ....3 years at home and a boy that theyd claimed band 2 funding for is thriving in secondary in top middle-top sets despite suffering m.e/cfs.

Ds3 has never been to school he is 8 and is positively thriving, hes well above 'average' -so much so that strangers pick up on it and ask what school he attends,even the headmaster of the local private school enquired as to where he was educated.
His manners are excellent he is an super team player very popular and very carefree the only difference between him and his peers is that he is taught in a loving environment and lives everyday in the real world.

He has empathy beyond his years and shows respect and understanding to all.

I dont think a primary school where 30 children share the same authorative figure learn the same thing using the same strategies for all is the best place for my child to learn.

I mean that if I had really wanted to do it I would have found a way-I don't think it is ever too late. I haven't wanted to do them and I think that I might have just been put off at 11yrs old because I was behind most of the rest.

He can be wonderful - and I'm sure all the HE-ers on here are doing a terrific job. I do worry about the rose tinted spectacles that are used for viewing HE on this site. There are downsides - as there are to everything. I am a little that it seems OK to say anything you like against school education - for example that it is weird and unnatural and only suitable to prepare children to work in call centres - but HE has to be perfect in every way.

My perception of the some of the downsides of HE follow.

You don't learn how to deal on a day to day basis with people you have nothing in common with, and probably don't like. This applies to peers and adults.

You don't learn that you sometimes just have to get on with stuff whether you want to or not.

You don't have to learn things which you think are dull but which turn out to be
brilliant.

You don't have a mixed bag of mates. You also don't have enemies that you have to learn to rub along with.

These are a few - there are more but I'm tired and on my way to bed.

My kids both go to school. I know people who HE. I may well HE in the future.

When I read what seeker has put, it doesn't make me think "aha, see, school is best!". After all there being downsides to HE in seeker's opinion doesn't magically remove downsides to school (I could list plenty of things I'm not that happy with about my kids' school so far). So any HEer feeling cross with seeker for saying that as if it's somehow giving HE a bad press, or because they disagree with those downsides, needn't. If anything it's doing it the favour of treating HE as a real grown-up choice, rather than something idealised (while school is demonised).

Real, viable options are never 100% perfect, they usually have cons as well as pros weighed up in order to be chosen. Warts and all opinions are so much more interesting amd useful than united (battle)fronts!

(And that's on both sides, by the way - I've had the whole defensive 'daren't admit anything might not be perfect' thing from teacher friends who feel attacked when pluses of HE are mentioned, too. I'd really far rather hear about everyone's warts...)

I think that the whole point is that school is not best or HE is not best. Both sides have their pluses and minuses. It also depends a lot on your DC, school is best for some and HE best for others-even within the same family. One size doesn't fit all.
Nothing is perfect-even the best school has its downsides and a fantastic teacher may not be fantastic with your DC. In the same way even the best examples of HE could be found to be lacking in some areas.
I am very much for school education-mainly for the reasons that seeker has given for the downsides of HE, but there are schools that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole and I could write an essay on what is wrong with education in this country-however I could also write an essay on what is right about it.
When it gets to HE no one will admit that they know poor examples, and yet my SIL who has contact with many knows a lot who are making a very poor job of it(the stories would be funny if they weren't affecting real DCs)-equally she knows the very good examples. Parents are not always the best judge, they are too closely emotionally involved to see the overall picture.
My main reason for not doing it is that I am not confident that I am right, and I like the fact that lots of people have added to the education of my DCs (and not just the ones picked by me). Different teachers bring out so many different sides to the DC. My DS is going through an awkward teenage phase at the moment and is quite difficult to communicate with at times and yet I went to school and one of his teachers said she would really miss him, he was a super lad with a great sense of humour! I was so pleased that she had seen through to that, because most people don't.
Overall I think HE would give me too much control over every aspects of their lives. If I don't like a friend it is easy to discourage the friendship-much more difficult at school where they see them every day.
It shouldn't be a case of either/or-it should just be another educational choice-seen 'warts and all' like any other educational choice. I don't think the rose tinted spectacles are always a good thing. A rosy picture is painted of HEed DCs having sport's days, history days, sleep overs etc and enormous fun and yet two people are posting at the moment, on the point of giving up because they can't break into the social side of other HEers, who don't want to know them. Nothing is ever perfect-and what is perfect for one DC isn't perfect for another.

absolutely. I didn't talk about what I think is wrong with school based education, because there are a raft of posts every day on here spelling out all the problems that exist in the system, some of which, of course, I share.

I do get riled that it seems OK to say that school is only suitable to educate potential call centre workers and for this comment to remain unchallenged. I would rightly be shot down in flames if I said that HE is only suitable for the education of future religious fundamentalists and facilitators of circus skills workshops!

Seeker,I have to disagree with several of your points.....H.E children live all day in the real world everyone they see isnt a child carer for example we were having a new kitchen fitted ds3 was intrigued but the kitchen fitter was quite miserablethrough reading this and adapting his behaviour he managed to become best of pals with the fitter who paid him to help him in the end.....ds3 had been using angles to decide where to fit the cupboards holding things etc etc ....the lady in the craft shop can be quite sullen but ds3 has learnt to engage her - on the contrary imo my ds3 deals with 'real life' everyday.

My ds3 has a huge circle of playmates and there are several kids he doesnt like and he avoids them but thats not to say he doesnt see them and still have 'trouble',also there are adults he doesnt quite 'get' and he behaves differently around them.

My ds spends time with children of varying abilities in fact his best friend is autistic and ds3 shows remarkable empathy in dealing with that.

Ds3 does not like writing but every day he has to,some topics he finds boring but they have to be done-learning anything new is hard for anyone.

of course he gets up some mornings and has his lessons knowing he is yards away from an xbox 360 and a new game but his work still has to be done!!!.

I think that this debate will rage on forever in the halls of mumsnet but please dont assume H.E children are lacking socially.

I particularly dislike the idea that HEers seem to think that teachers want obedient little rows of DCs who sit and take in whatever they are told, never have any individuality or question and then regurgitate whatever they have been told onto paper. The job would be unbearable! It is the quirky little individuals who question everything and have their own ideas who make the job worthwhile.
I have a problem with autonomous learning and the idea that every DC is hungry for knowledge and can teach themselves when they are ready, because it doesn't take into account the advantages of a talented teacher who is passionate about their subject. Maybe I am misunderstanding something along the way but I would have thought that if a DC suddenly got interested in algebra then a maths graduate, trained to teach (not all maths graduates have the ability to teach it to someone else)would be better than your mother facilitating your learning with books or the internet.
I think my brother would have loved to have been HEed as a DC (he is the one HEing his own DCs) and yet he really took off at school aged about 13yrs. He loved Latin and Greek. If he was at home he would never have even thought they were subjects he wanted to learn and my parents didn't know any. He enjoyed them because he had very small classes and a teacher with a sense of humour that appealed to my brother and a passion for the subject +the ability to inspire others. I don't think that he has tried either subject with his own DCs, and if he has it wouldn't be successful because he couldn't put it across in anything other than a really boring way. Teaching is a talent and some things need to be taught rather than picked up.

"please don't assume H.E children are lacking socially"

I haven't time to reply now - but you see that's my point. I didn't and don't make any such assumptions, but you seem to think I did!

"Teaching is a talent and some things need to be taught rather than picked up."

I think that the distinction between "taught" versus "caught" learning is worth exploring too. When children are out and about in the RL, they "catch" lots of information about the world by virtue of being exposed to it. The more varied a child's experience of the world, the more information he/she is likely to catch.

HEers always get defensive on the social part-it is one thing that I have never made assumptions about-I have always thought there was quite a big EO scene. However I have been shocked to find that some HEers find groups unsociable see this thread and very few HEers have given advice.
Of course you need a varied experience of the world BonsoirAnna, but you are only in school 6hrs a day, 5 days a week with 13 weeks holiday-it gives plenty of time to get a varied experiece- which a talented teacher can then use.

I quite agree, piscesmoon - I think that school is important, and I think that autonomous HE is important, and that a child who receives both will be getting maximum opportunity for rounded development!