Be honest, I want everyone's views......what do you think of home ed???

[3Ddonut]

I suspect this may get nasty, but please try to keep it nice ladies (and gents) I really like the idea of home ed, I would dearly love to home ed my dc but there are some problems, firstly I work 3 nights a week and my dh works 2 full days,my eldest dd is 5 and she really loves school, but some of things that she says about school unsettle me, I always said that it is their choice if they want to go to school or not, which is why she is there and my ds is in nursery but I wish she'd want to stay home and the longer that she's there, the more I feel that we're wasting time...

I've read a lot of the other threads and see that you can do some home-ed stuff alongside school but I don't think that it's enough for me, I want them to remain interested and not be moved on from one thing too quickly or forced to spend time on things they dislike.

We're already a close family because of mine and dh's shifts there is nearly always someone in the house and we get to spend a lot of time with the kids. I suppose I'd just like it to be more of the same.

My main concerns are that the dc would resent us for it in the future (although I would not take a happy child out of school) I also worry about the effect of home ed-ing the children would have on future employers and university places, I do worry about the socialisation aspect although the kids are in a few groups and are very social, they interact well with adults as well as other children, I'm concerned about how much time I'd have to work with them with working full time myself (no opportunity to cut hours)

I'm going round in circles at the min, I think my ds would be more open to the idea and I'm considering not sending dd2 to nursery at all.

The other biggie is that the school they attend is out of area and it's a really good one, they wouldn't get back in there if we deregistered, I've considered flexi-schooling but I feel that would bring more problems than solutions....

OK, Open fire!!!

I met a passionate home educator once upon a time, who was in the same situation, she said in the 6 weeks holiday, let me do it my way and then see what you think, her ds never went back to school and is much happier as a result (he has some sn, which wasn't been managed well in school)

There is a webpage for Dads by home educating Dads on the EO website.

EO is a great organisation. I used to be a member. They have a book that is a must for anyone interested in HE.

3Ddonut

'
DrNortherner, you're right we don't have a science lab or sports hall in our home, but we do have access to the local sports facilities and as for science, there are experiments we can do around the home that are more realistic and unless they decide to follow this in a career I don't see how that isn't better or as good as school experiments, I didn't learn anything valuable from the lab, did you?'

we yes I did! But I'm a science teacher so I suppose that this sexpected.

I think you are missing the enguagement aspect of lab based science for kids. You can get a substantial 'wow' factor out of practicals, and they are particularly good for children who are kinesthetic learners.

I well remember one lad shouting out 'Bloody hell, where did those colours come from' when he first got to 'split' light, with a prism.

and the alkali metals lesson has to be seen to be believed.

also the explanation for this things tend to be better done by people who undetstand the subject at some greater depth. I'm thinking of the explanation of the flame tests (another wow lesson!) as a particular example of this

science practicals are very motivational

expected!

not sexpected!

I do see your point, MB.

But too many negatives outweigh these positives IMO.

I think schools should be more like drop in centres for the interested.

Flynnie - we are considering flexi-schooling, but i'm fast going off the idea. Less exposure to the negatives of school is still a negative experience.

"I think schools should be more like drop in centres for the interested."

Ooooh, love that idea

Not really practical to have a totally free form system. You'd really have to stick to a timetable of events if it was going to be a meaningful learning experience, as opposed to 'edutainment'

Some of the things that you can do, don't need that much kit, but they do need a depth of understanding, and 'time in the field' IYSWIM.

So I know all sorts of little demos and mini practicals that really make a topic come to life, because I've been storing them up for years. and yes you can get some from the internet etc, but again it really helps if you have in depth subject knowledge to explain them, and also very importantly to explain the shortcomings of a model, otherwise a learning opportunity becomes an opportunity for confusion.

I am amazed that some people let the kids decide about going to school or home ed. Are children really mature enough to make this decision?

I'm trying to think about all teh things I loved about school that I'd have missed had I been home ed :

The practical science lessons (yes MB I loved them too)
PE - Netball and rounders particularly
Drama - being in shows and concerts
Group work/team work
Play time and dinner time - catching up with mates
Assembly - being called out to get a certificate in front of the whole school and of course
The boys
Youth Club
School trips

I can't help but wonder would a child not feel really different to have missed out on being in a school environment?

My French teacher was French and so passionate about his language

My Science teacher had wild hair and really did look like the mad scientist - he loved his subject

My Drama teacher was an atry farty luvvy type who swore and allowed us to call him by his first name

Our English teacher instilled a love of the english language into us and even made war poetry exciting and interesting - to a class of 14 yr olds that is soem feat

Our History teacher was so knowledgable and wise and we all loved him

Our PE teacher played hockey for England

How on earth do you roll all that up into 1/2 parents?

But most HE'ers that I know don't rely on 1/2 parents. They usually have a number of people involved, who could be better qualified in the particular area than someone who has gone into teaching for a career.

DrNortherner - lucky you, but I do not have one fond memory of high school.

The trouble is the inflexibility of the school system. One size does not fit all as (surely) everybody knows, yet the govt persist in dressing this up as equal opportunities.

MB - you would need a timetable of events, of course, certainly for more advanced 'interested people'.

MB you sound like a fabulous science teacher-there was one of those at the middle school that two of our children attended-everyone loved his lessons.
Sadly his teaching was not enough to make up for some of the other teachers though.
And I am still not school bashing, I know there are fabulous dedicated teachers in fabulous schools-just as there are great and not so great nurses (my own profession)

We do manage with some science, with a chemistry set and internet sites like Krampf Experiment of the Week which explain things pretty well.

And of course an interested home ed child can go and do science to any level by distance learning OU degree's and FE college etc-as Mehetabel's son did-he's about 21 now, at Manchester Uni (I think it's Manchester) doing his PHd in some sort of medical research.

It is not the same education as the one our children would have had in school-we found what we lost on the swings we definately gained on the roundabouts!

So a different education personalised to our children's needs.

Wouldn't suit all families-but definately suited ours.

I was Home ed from the age of 14 after being badly bullied. I knew then that it was the right thing for me.
IMO if done in the right way HE can provide far more in the way of diversity and experience...

'They usually have a number of people involved, who could be better qualified in the particular area than someone who has gone into teaching for a career. '

Not so sure about 'usually' but I dare say we can agree to differ,

and just because you know a subject, it doesn't mean that you are good at explaining it to someone.

My dh is very, very, very good at maths, and his attempts to explain stuff to our kids makes me cringe. He has little understanding to progression in a subject, and make s assumptions based on what he thinks they know. He seldom takes things back to first principles.

The majority of secondary teachers have degrees in the subhects they teach and have been trained in the skills of teaching itself (both during their PGCR and after)

DrNortherner - I think the person best equipped to decide where a person is going to be happiest and most fulfilled in their day is the person themself. The sort of mother who would listen to their child's preference if they were screaming at the nursery gate is likely to be the sort of mother who thinks about HE for a child who is unhappy in school. No child gets to make this decision alone, but the lucky ones have parents who say "we'll do whatever suits him/her best".

On the socially inept HEed adults, there are several replies, but I'll try to stick to the polite ones. 1. There are plenty of socially inept people who went to school and 2. It is often the case that a child who isn't a gregarious type, or a type who finds social interaction difficult, is seriously unhappy in the school environment. THey may well be sufficiently unhappy, disruptive, self-harming, bullied, whatever that their parents finally remove them from school. HE didn't makethat child socailly inept. It gives them the best possible chance of developing social skills in a caring and sympathetic environment rather than the jungle of the playground. You are going to find higher than usual proportions of children who have special needs of one kind and another in the HE community because, as several of the HEing mumsnetters will point out to you given a chance, some schools are absolutely rubbish at helping such children to integrate.

As for the wondrous teachers and wondrous occasions, DrNortherner it sounds like you had a lovely time at school. Good for you. That doesn't mean A) that everyone has a lovely time at school or B) that school is the best place for everyone to be.

Back to the OP: you'll get passionate school advocates and passionate HE advocates. I think the best place to start is the fact that in law in the UK, parents are responsible for ensuring that their children receive an education, "in school or otherwise". For those who say "school is really what children ought to be going to, it's the best thing", it is worth remembering that the law of the land does not reflect your opinion. In law, the parents have the primary responsibility for their children's education, and the fact that most choose to subcontract that responsibility to state schools doesn't affect the fact that HE has an equal legal status.

It's odd, when one thinks about it in historical terms, that school is taken as the default. Because it has been the default for less than 200 years. And the beginnings of secular schools lie in the upwardly-mobile merchant classes trying to get education for their sons but not being able to afford tutors, so clubbing together to create "grammar schools" - for hundreds of years, school was seen as second best to being educated at home! For those of us "through the mirror", not much has changed there...

'As for the wondrous teachers and wondrous occasions, DrNortherner it sounds like you had a lovely time at school. Good for you. That doesn't mean A) that everyone has a lovely time at school or B) that school is the best place for everyone to be.'

But turning this on its head for a moment, neither does this mean that Dr N is unique and that the majority of schools are horrid and inept, and that school is the wrong place for everyone.

Horses for courses and all that

DrNortherner talked of the things she would have missed if she had been home educated;

The practical science lessons (yes MB I loved them too)
PE - Netball and rounders particularly
Drama - being in shows and concerts
Group work/team work
Play time and dinner time - catching up with mates
Assembly - being called out to get a certificate in front of the whole school and of course
The boys
Youth Club
School trips

All good points-science I have just commented on.

we don't do netball, which is a shame because I loved it at school, but dd does do rugby, sailing, kayaking on a regular basis within the home ed community and dancing at a normal after school lessons.
(She once told some dancing friends that she had hurt herself playing rugby that day and they replied "Oh my God! they make you play Rugby??!!" )
She also regularly does one off activities such as zip wires, grass sledging, rock climbing etc etc.

Drama;
Last year the local home educated young people made an application for funding themselves, for some drama they wanted to do.
They got the £1500 they asked for and wrote their own script, designed their costumes, made their own props, organised and went on a research trip to a theatre-and then performed twice at the Malvern Street theatre and twice in Hereford Town Centre on World Environment Day
There is a picture of them posing, just before the first performance at the bottom of our local HE website

Group work/team work;
We really did do team work games this month at one of the HE meetings-and they regularly work together at gatherings and events.
Last year whilst we were at the first of many HE holidays the children decided to put on a Masterchef competition. There was lots of wild garlic and young nettles, so each team of two youngsters had to produce a two course meal in the allotted time. Garlic and nettles were the compulsary ingredients.
Another youngster was the commere, others were the judges, someone else filmed the whole thing-including several commercial breaks!
They did every single thing without any input from the adults. Children from 5-17 were involved.
We didn't even get to taste the results.

Play time and dinner time; why restrict catching up with your mates to those times??

Assembly;no we don't do assembly-but certificates for sailing/dancing etc are awarded in front of the group.

The boys; believe me there are lots of home ed boys!
Three of them were staying here last week!
Our three meet other home ed peers locally and nationally. They literally have friends all over the country.
DD will be meeting a whole bunch on Saturday again-then they will travel together to a Home edders 18th birthday party that is north of here.

Youth Club+School trips;
My nieces constantly comment that life is not fair our children's lives are filled with youth club type meetings and trips (day trips and home ed gatherings and holidays throughout the summer)

Now I am not saying that every home ed families experience is the same as ours-just as every schooled child does not have the same experience.

I am saying that we have provided a different but equally valid education for our children.

MB - you've mentioned on other HE threads about a book which explains how children get scientific principles wrong (and how that carries on into adulthood, if I've got that right - it was part of one of the many discussions about teaching vs facilitating) - can you remind me of the details please, and in your opinion, is it somethign which is a "read once" book, or a "refer to a lot" book?

Yes, I think you do too J.

It's all a question of tips and balances isn't it. I think there is great value in the school environment, even in the negatives actually almost especially in the negatives. But it's an unfashionable view, and the depends on the tips and balances.

I think there is merit in the conversations I have with ds's which start 'why didn't I make the football team?' or 'why does so and so call me names?' or 'why do I have to learn times tables? They are boring.'

If those conversations were 'I got beaten up today' or 'I haven't learnt anything in a year' then it's tipped too far, and they shouldn't be in the school environment.

I also think that there is value in being taught.

Value in doing something which doesn't interest you at the time.

I'm happy for the acquisition of knowledge to be part enthusiasm but that it also be demanding and rigorous and necessarily born out of their own desires.

I'm happy for my dcs to spend a morning staring out the window daydreaming. I'm also happy for them to understand how the herd moves, to see if they can navigate their way through it, to look at what is around them and decide whether that society is always just or unjust in its decisions and actions.

I don't think their individuality is being undermined, I think it is being FORMED. I think they will be more interesting because of it, they will have understood who they are, how they react, how conformist they will or will not be.

BUT again, if the herd trampled them underfoot, then I'd remove from the herd. I wouldn't take that risk for a minute.

So it is tips and balances. Mine are all curious people, full of inquisitiveness and two out of three are not round pegs at all so I watch those tips and balances with interest.

I should add that I went to a VERY non conformist school. Where we were encouraged to express ourselves, where our interests were of paramount importance.

If we didn't 'see the point' in French, we didn't go to the lessons! If we liked Drama, we did lots of drama.

Now I think, there doesn't have to be a point to French. You just learn French, then you decide if there's a point!

Needless to say, mine all go to a very conformist school!

'Making sense of secondary science- research into children's ideas' Driver et al
isbn 0-415-09765-7 for the paperback.

I just pulled it from my bookcase behind me, so I guess it is in fairly regular use!

thanks MB, I'm just a bit [gulp] at the £18.99 price tag. It's in my Amazon basket though, for when DH isn't paying attention I'm feeling not quite so broke as now

Oh MB I was going to post on this thread but I see I do not need to as you have posted such brilliant common sense, as ever.

Love that story of the boy shouting out about the colours

am a bit mystified that people might think we don't do

The practical science lessons (yes MB I loved them too)

science-julie has covered BUT the only stuff we can't do is stuff proscribed by health and safety. We can cut stuff up, grow stuff, look at things under microscopes (using networking .

if you are creative, there are ways tso do an awful lot more stuff. most towns have scientific societies, science cafes, branches of the rspb, etc etc. most universities do free lectures. and that is before you get onto the big science festivals, eg the edinburgh science fair, etc.

Most scientists seem to enjoy talking about what they are doing with kids who are genuinely interested.

I have to admit, science teaching is one big reason for me HEing. Clearly there are some great teachers out there. I went to one of the UK's top state schools -highly academic, 99.9% university entrance-and I was put of science for a very, very long time by the crapness of the teaching. chemistry, for example, consisted on memorising the periodic table, very very few experiments and nothing "dangerous". And incidentally, this was post national curriculum-my school was a flagship NC/SATs school.

oh and re the other stuff on the list-

PE - Netball and rounders particularly
Drama - being in shows and concerts
Group work/team work
Play time and dinner time - catching up with mates
Assembly - being called out to get a certificate in front of the whole school and of course
The boys
Youth Club
School trips

we do most of those, or there are at least chances to do them, at the local HE groups (and we have at least one group running every week day within about 10-30 minutes drive). We go on trips with lots of other kids, more I'd think than kids in school go to. And HE'd kids can go to out-of-school stuff.

also-we have HE'd boys...