I feel HE isn't working out for us :(

[Lakitu]

Hi, thanks for taking time to read this. I don't have anyone in RL that I can talk to about it as no one was supportive of my decision to HE, so they will just say 'I told you so'

I took my 2 Dc out of school 1 year ago, for a mixture of reasons. Mainly it was to do with Dd being bullied and falling way behind due to the amount of time she was spending out of class due to that and being in trouble for bad behaviour nearly every single day. I was going to leave her brother in school, but he refused to go if his sister wasn't there.

So 1 year on and I really can't see that the pair of them have learnt anything in the time since they left school. I am certain that DS at least would have learnt many things in this time, if in school. Instead all he does each day is play computer games. If I take them away he will scream, shout, hit and kick and refuse to do anything else.

DD has obviously benefitted from not being bullied and constantly being told she is a bad person every day. If I try to do any learning work with her though, she will often whine and cry so I stop. she can't cope with anything harder than basic addition or writing a few words. Any encouragement to try anything a little harder leads to her switching back to the mindset she had in school, that she is stupid and bad and everyone hates her. It is truly terrible thing to hear a young child saying.

Basically I feel like the whole idea of HE hasn't really worked for us. I am to blame for the most part as I don't seem to be able to organise anything that works well for us at all. Too often I have to leave the DC to their own devices as I have unending number of other tasks to do. Really I should be setting up all sorts of fun learning opportunities for them, but by the time I manage that they have lost interest or (in DS's case) would still rather just play a computer instead.

Anyway self-indulgent moaning over, should I be sending them both back to school? Or (I'm really hoping) is there anything else I could try to make HE work?

How old are they?
Could you perhaps look into getting a tutor for literacy and numeracy and then do enrichment fun stuff yourself?

I'm am open to HE. I have seriously considered for Dd2 due to bullying.

I changed Dd's school and we are working on confidence etc. i suggest a new school for them both.

How old are your children?

You sound very fed up. Have you been feeling that it's not working for a long time or just this week?

There are some more details that would help:
Did you de-school when you first came out of school?
Are you an active member of a local HE group?
Does your day have any structure? If not would you be able to put some in?
Do you only limit computer games when it is time to work or do you have a daily maximum number of hours of screen time?
How much time do you accompany the children in their games (not schooling activities)? Accompanying can be sitting and commenting on what they're doing or running around playing "It", or joining in a board game.
What does a typical day for you look like?
Do you want to recreate school in the home?
Do you want to do some adult led activities?
Do you want to let them become autonomous learners (they decide what to do and your role is to observe which activities they want to do and provide resources for it)
Are you only judging progress in terms of reading and writing and maths?
Are you also looking at progress in terms of Personal/Social development, Physical development(sports/gym skills etc), Communication (Speaking skills), Knowledge of the World, Creative development (art, music, drama), Problem solving, ICT etc.......

They are 8 and 9 years old. I don't think I could afford tutors. I can't even manage to organise fun stuff to do at the moment either. even when I do, DS will not join in if it isn't playing computer games. It is all he cares about.

I used to pay for them to do a French class each week (their choice) but DS refused to join in and would not do the homework. DD would try but couldn't keep up and would start messing about in class instead. If I sat with her and made her do the homework, it would result in tears and she learnt nothing, so just got further behind all the rest. Same happened with learning music instruments. DS pont blank refused to practise ever. DD would do it if I made her but after 2 years still she could hardly play a recognisable simple tune.

To answer some of maggi's questions: no I have been feeling it is not working for some time now, trying to search for a way to improve the situation is what lead me here.

Yes they were deschooled and I would like for them to become autonomous learners, but I'm not sure I can accept that if it means letting DS play computers 24/7.

I try to limit it but DS still refuses to do anything else ever. I had taken away all devices from him for 2 weeks until yesterday. My DM looked after them and gave his Ds console back, since then he is barricaded in his room playing it.

I'm not just looking at reading, writing and maths. I look at all aspects but really can't see any progress anywhere for either one. DD tells me what she is interested in, I provide resources/ideas etc. but unless that is instantly she is then not interested anymore. Where I can do it straight away, still a few months down the line if asked she will claim to know nothing about that very topic she was once so interested in.

A typical day for us. I get up at 6am. Try to do all the housework/washing/deal with paperwork (this is a never ending job, I really struggle to get into any organised routine with it) before DD gets up at 7.30-8am. We have breakfast and get washed/dressed etc. I will have tried and most likely failed at this point to get DS to do the same. He often does not get up until 10am.

I try to have all my jobs done by 9am so that we have the morning free to spend doing stuff together. sometimes this works, other times not. DD is quite good at 'in a minute' and 'I just need to... first' even when I allow her to choose what we are going to be doing.

So time quite quickly gets away from us, by then DS is usually awake and demanding his computer games. He will not stop asking and will hit/kick/scream/throw stuff when I say no. But that means he will not leave DD and I to do what we had planned, but he won't join in either. I can't win. If he gets the computer at least I can concentrate on DD for a while, but then by giving in he thinks he can do this each time and it will work, which I don't want happening. Anyway by then DD has lost interest, gone to do something else or worse is now demanding she gets her computer too as its not fair.

By lunchtime I'm tearing my hair out. Nothing we had planned has been done, there is probably now a huge mess to tidy adding to the ever growing list of other jobs I need to do, which I put off in order to do activities with the DC. After lunch I have to get ready for work. this is a battle too as DS always refuses to go to the childcare because it means a few hours with no computers. He is mostly happy enough once there though, its just a struggle to get him ready and out the door, but that it the same for most things theses days.

Then once I finish work and collect DC and get home it is 7pm. DD will be tired so she gets ready for bed. DS will refuse to do the same, again demanding computers. He will not go to sleep until late, often between 12-2am (this was the same even when he was in school btw). The whole time he will be shouting and throwing stuff if he has no game to play. If he does he will still stay up that late playing it anyway.

I am also knackered from work by now and need to cook my dinner (DC eat at childcare) and try to sort anything else that needs doing, but often I'm just too tired. I'd like to use this time for planning the next days activities (or finally finishing my own education that has taken a backseat these past few years) but most of the time I end up just trying to deal with DS and keep him quiet so DD can sleep and our neighbours don't phone the police. Often I just end up going to sleep myself instead hoping that the next day will somehow magically be better.

We are going to be able to help you. It might take a bit of unweaving, though.

Flash points:

Your sleep
DS's sleep
Screen arguments
Academics
Getting out of the house
Daily chores

I think these all need thinking about separately.

Getting out of the house. Most of our best, most education, conversations happen in the car. In your shoes, I would leave the chores. Get everything ready for a trip somewhere fun. HE group, local attraction, park, charity shops, whatever floats your boats. Also have plenty of food packed up and ready to go, that you know the children will eat. As soon as they wake, get the children into the car. Breakfast en route or even in a cafe, dammit, while you are establishing the new normal. Spend all morning doing this fun thing. Drop them off at child care. Go to work. When they get home, relax with screens while you do chores. Now you don't need to get up at silly o clock.

DS's sleep. I'm assuming he's on the autistic spectrum? If so, then, duh, he almost certainly under produces melatonin. Either get some prescribed by the gp, or else buy some from America (you can only get it on prescription here, but it is perfectly legal to buy some by mail order). That should sort that out.

Academics. I go through phases where I worry about screen time. And then I realise that my children are using screens to do really cool and amazing things, involving amazing creativity. Spend 20 mins a day next to each child on a computer. Observe, ask questions. You'll see the same thing happening.

When I am sleep deprived, everything seems insurmountable to me. I bet you will feel much more positive once you've got that sorted.

Ps I have a friend whose children each have a tablet they play on in the car. By the time it occurs to them to object about the itinerary, they are already at the beach, yk? Doesn't work for me, but it does for her.

Pps I have another friend who limits screen time - screens off at 9am, on again at 530. Again, it would not work for me but it does for them.

OK I will try that for tomorrow. There is an HE group meet up we can go to from 10-12. It will mean making DS get up earlier than normal though, but I will try bribing him by letting him have his console on the car journey.

I am so sorry I have no words of wisdom to offer you but am sending as you must be exhausted.

It's not always a bed of roses with my dd especially academics, but i have learned that sometimes they start talking about something and you realise they have learned lots of things. I am always wobbling about this though so can sympathise.

We found laying off the academics worked for us, so nothing really structured other than fun. She isn't into games though, so that helped a lot.
Does your dd like baking, crafts and art. Its just something she can do unsupervised whilst you tackle your ds behaviour in relation to screen time.

Ommm has some good ideas. Your plan for tomorrow sounds good.

I quite like routines. I would start by having a reason to get up by a set time each morning. Perhaps plan a whole week's activities outside the house with weekends being more lazy (if you don't work weekends). More physical activity will help your ds sleep.

Once that is established, decide how much access you want ds to have to his computers. I am guessing that you would like him to have a bedtime limit. At that age my guys had a bedtime of 7.30 with lights out at 8. But the actual time isn't so important as having a set bedtime routine.

It might take 2 weeks of hard work and tears (possibly from everyone) before the children settle into this. But once achieved, it would give you some time to relax and think positive thoughts.

If you are feeling exhausted I would work on the sleep before anything else (but this will mean tackling an evening limit on computer time). You can get through this. You can also seek short term help from your GP who can point you towards ways of feeling better.

I hope it goes well tomorrow ?? remember, it's all just a matter of experimenting and trying different things till you find what works for you. I have another friend who does chores day, when everyone mucks in and helps. Takes the weight off the mum.

But chores day once a week does not work for me (slattern). I wait for a child to say "oh please may we tidy and vacuum upstairs today", and then I indulge them ;-) there is something rather glorious about letting go domestically.

Sorry for multiple posts. I keep thinking of extra things.you need to find a rhythm that works for all of you. If we stay at home for more than 2 or 3 mornings a week, the house becomes a tip, and we are all stir crazy. It is really worth building up your home ed groups and hanging out with home edders at the park or wherever. When you are not at home, it stays as tidy as you left it :)

I am sorry you are having such a tough time. Others have already given most of the advice I would have.
Can I ask if your son is diagnosed ASD and if you are getting help and support there?

I have 2 sons and have always found that they get angrier, and generally more unpleasant people the more time they spend on screens.
I would quite like to educate autonomously with them self regulating but it isn't right for them. They may not recognise it but they are much happier when we have routine and screen restrictions - even if the rules aren't hard and fast more a flexible guide.
I find changes need to be gradual, when we've slipped into bad habits with screens and I feel it as been an issue in the past I've found the best way has been to remove it as an option by keeping us out of the house as much as possible. We also have the understanding that basic level of tidyness has to be in place downstairs and they are expected to help.
How are things at childcare?

Well I'm about to try to get DS up and ready to go out- wish me luck!
I definitely agree the more time he spends on his computers the angrier and more unpleasant he gets. I have tried sitting watching he before but there is nothing creative about what he does, he will actively avoid doing anything that might look even vaguely like learning on there.

He doesn't have ASD btw although when they were both at school I was asked to agree to an ASD assessment referral for DD as she was the one always in trouble there, never DS. It never happened of course like most of the other things the school said they would do.

I would love for us to have more routine, I really would. I hate living in the chaotic way we do right now. I've tried and failed to establish one though and it never seems to work out. I'm just not organised enough and the DC will refuse to stick to it, even when they have been the ones who decided what it would be! then of course something unexpected happens, that needs dealing with straight away, and everything gets thrown out and we can't get back on track.

I must admit the though of spending every day out somewhere is filling me with dread too. Its going to start getting very expensive as well because there is nothing nearby so even free things to go to are 30-40 mins drive away plus parking costs etc. I don't think only doing chores once a week is possible either- we would have no clean clothes to wear! In just an hour this morning, while I was cleaning one room, DD has turned another room into a tip and there are toys all over the upstairs landing. this happens every time she is left to play on her own, yet if I stay with her all that time then nothing else can get done and I'm always playing catch up.

I'm a list person.
You could try a list?

Here's my early morning list/schedule:
*wake
*whilst kettle is boiling, put away washing up (I leave dinner plates draining overnight)
*make tea and turn on the news
*whilst watching news and drinking my first cuppa, I fold up the laundry from the airer (we don't have a dryer), and put it in separate piles on the stairs for everyone to take up their own. Ironing from that load is stored in a corner until I have a quiet moment.
*make breakfast for dd, and packed lunch for ds2
*wake up kids (7.50)
*toilet and dress dd and get her eating breakfast
*boys get themselves ready and do chores (taking out rubbish and sweeping the hard floors)
*I tidy downstairs
*I shower (kids do it at night) and wipe around the bathroom

• I go up to get dressed and take up anything of mine I found on the tidy up and my laundry pile.
  *Once dressed I tidy dd room and check boys' rooms (calling them up to sort out any issues themselves) *I bring down a load of dirty laundry and pop it in machine *I go through school bags (I have 2 schoolies, 1HE) and deal with any letters I find. *I clean up dd after breakfast and talk her through doing her physio whilst I wash up and then pack her bags for school *Final toilet trip for ds and do her teeth, then remind boys to do their teeth (they NEVER remember) *Bus arrives for ds and I load her on (wheelchair) *Have 5 mins conversation with ds2 before he leaves for school (8am) *I have a final check of cleanliness/safety downstairs then set up some toys for the children coming today (I childmind) *Call ds1 to get our HE work out on the table whilst I make my 2nd cuppa *Chat briefly to dh to see whether he needs me to do anything today (pick up sandwich ham etc) and then he leaves *ds2 is about to do GCSEs so we work on those for a few hours. We take 3 breaks to 1)hang up the wet washing 2)have a late breakfast 3)do yoga stretches. *childmindees have all arrived and I need to watch those whilst I answer questions for ds2 and set him new exercizes. We use some online resources so I don't need to set the work but know it is the right level and I can monitor it. *then we go out either to a HE event or something for the mindees, trying to get as much outdoor time as we can in the late morning.

We are flexible and if a HE event begins early we do the bookwork in the eve. If a mindee needs to arrive early, then I have to adjust and make sure the cleaning and safety checks are all done early too.

That is quite a long list. I wrote it down to show how much work this particular adult has to put in just to do the basics. This obviously doesn't include all the evening work I do with ds1, the evening physio I do with dd, the homework help I give ds2, making dinner, shopping, cleaning specific areas of the house, paperwork from childminding, and all the fun we have.

My point is it is actually very hard and often under appreciated as to how much work it is to run a household. I need my lists each day and week to enable me to remember to book eye tests, get to kids parties, pay school lunch money etc.... I really don't enjoy doing all this housework. I love the feeling of satisfaction when it is all done. But if I didn't have deadlines and a plan for the day, it would be very tempting not to do it.

This long post wasn't intended as "Look at me. I can do all this." It was to show one way to keep things under control.

I've just got home as had a late meeting tonight but briefly today was simply awful. As expected DS did not want to get up and go out, but we finally made it for the last hour of the HE group. The whole time we were there he complained and refused to join in the activities though, not exactly what I would call fun.

Fast forward to tonight and DS is sitting at the top of the stairs screaming at me and throwing stuff down. I've had enough for 1 day, I'm going to bed I'm so tired i could sleep for a week. I'll write a list in the morning of everything I need to do (put pick up the broken stuff DS has thrown at the top) but I don't have a problem remembering to do it all, its finding the time to do it all and getting the other 2 people in the house to co-operate to help achieve it all.

They need to go back to school. They have already lost so much of their education. Obviously a different school but they need to go. You can't leave children that young to teach themselves. If you want to do HE you need to work on that not other tasks every day.
I would suggest counselling for your dd as the bullying is still affecting her and then enrolling them both into a new school but keeping a close eye and making sure the teachers know about her issues.

Just my thoughts op, your ds needs to be in school, this isn't working for him or you. You say he was never in trouble at school but now his behaviour seems way out of hand.

Dd isn't exactly thriving either. Do you all a favour. Enrol them both tomorrow.

I agree sorry. This is chaos not he!!

itsbetterthan might be worth you doing some research into different home ed styles before making general pronouncements about what is and isn't possible or desirable in the education of every child.

lakitu so sorry today was so hard. Might be worth sitting down and working out how you want your days to look, and how you want the children 's education to look, and do some networking locally and online to pick people 's brains, and also ask the children how they would like things to be. And then maybe pick one thing to work on together with the children at a time. And maybe that is the education you all need at this point. Their learning is about (say) what happens when you are responsible for your play space yourself, and your learning is about how not to take the lead, but be ready to help with words or actions when requested.

I spent years doing this. I always had one thing that I was focused on trying to shift and left everything else pretty much alone. During that period, I hardly ever made any headway on the thing I was concentrating on, but the children took advantage of my focus being elsewhere to quietly pursue what was important to them, like literacy (in which screen media have been of major benefit each time).

It seems to me that there are some big resentments and stress in your family dynamic right now, for whatever reason. I would be trying to work through those before concentrating on anything else, myself.

By the way, research iPad apps that are to do with literacy, numeracy etc. Word wizard is basic but gets used a certain amount here. There's reading raven, liquid sketch, teach your monster, writing wizard. Just get a heap of free ones. Learning is not less valid just because there is a screen involved. Have the subtitles on when there is a dvd playing.

And get 1 or 2 early learning workbooks for your daughter. If she needs to build confidence by doing easy peasy stuff then for goodness sake, let her! She will let you know when she is ready for something harder.

So sorry you're having an awful time :(

How do the DCs themselves feel about the idea of going back to school? Is there any chance a "you need to learn at home or you will have to go to school instead" would help? Not ethical I guess but if they really don't want to go to school... I don't know, maybe a family meeting or something where you could tell them it's not working and you need to all work together to agree some new 'rules' going forward (eg a couple of household things like always getting their laundry ready, as well as a certain amount of work they'll do each day)? I'm in no way experienced with this BTW but just trying to think of a different way to approach it.

Also I think the behaviour issue is separate, I have seen so many threads, articles etc about children who are totally hooked on screen time and get aggressive about it, so this could easily have still happened if your DS was still at school.

Ommmward. You genuinely think kids that young can just be left to do literally whatever they want. Such as playing computer games all day and they'll be well educated?
Because that is what is currently happening for the op so it obviously isn't working.