I feel HE isn't working out for us :(

[Lakitu]

Hi, thanks for taking time to read this. I don't have anyone in RL that I can talk to about it as no one was supportive of my decision to HE, so they will just say 'I told you so'

I took my 2 Dc out of school 1 year ago, for a mixture of reasons. Mainly it was to do with Dd being bullied and falling way behind due to the amount of time she was spending out of class due to that and being in trouble for bad behaviour nearly every single day. I was going to leave her brother in school, but he refused to go if his sister wasn't there.

So 1 year on and I really can't see that the pair of them have learnt anything in the time since they left school. I am certain that DS at least would have learnt many things in this time, if in school. Instead all he does each day is play computer games. If I take them away he will scream, shout, hit and kick and refuse to do anything else.

DD has obviously benefitted from not being bullied and constantly being told she is a bad person every day. If I try to do any learning work with her though, she will often whine and cry so I stop. she can't cope with anything harder than basic addition or writing a few words. Any encouragement to try anything a little harder leads to her switching back to the mindset she had in school, that she is stupid and bad and everyone hates her. It is truly terrible thing to hear a young child saying.

Basically I feel like the whole idea of HE hasn't really worked for us. I am to blame for the most part as I don't seem to be able to organise anything that works well for us at all. Too often I have to leave the DC to their own devices as I have unending number of other tasks to do. Really I should be setting up all sorts of fun learning opportunities for them, but by the time I manage that they have lost interest or (in DS's case) would still rather just play a computer instead.

Anyway self-indulgent moaning over, should I be sending them both back to school? Or (I'm really hoping) is there anything else I could try to make HE work?

Lakitu what a very sweet thing for your DS to say. The childcare sounds lovely too.

Ommmward has given you such brilliant advice (as usual!) and the last post from Ommm might be something you refer back to quite a few times as you work through everything in your own mind and also with your DC's. The comment about trust is particularly important.

Re. the computer, it's no surprise that things started from school, if he was struggling there then needing some time alone on his computer to wind down was no doubt just his way of coping. My children aren't resticted to screen time but DD2 tends to choose the iPad after we go to an activity or visit/have visits from friends and family for some of the same reasons so I can understand this. That said, DD1 rarely bothers with any kind of screen, the need just isn't there at all.

Don't feel that age equals a certain bedtime...in the same way that you have already noticed that sanctions can't alter a body clock. TBh, your DS sounds like he was made for unschooling .

juneau - point of information: in law, elective home education does NOT have to happen in school hours. In fact, for all the people on this thread being anxious about what Lakitu's children are receiving as an education, may I recommend paragraph 3.13 of the government's guidelines for LA's on Elective Home Education? linky It might help to reassure you, too, Lakitu, if you haven't read it recently.

So these older children are essentially in play group in the mornings and then play video games in the afternoon.
They need to be educated. Either by engaging in HE properly which it seems you are unable to provide or going to school.
How do you know your dd would be bullied at a different school? If you went in straight away with teachers on side it probably won't happen.
Your son has nothing to do with this and the decision should not be up to him. He either studies at home or goes to school.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that HE has to happen during formal school hours, merely that to educate your DC, rather than just let them bum around at home while you do the housework, presumably the sort of hours needed to do this is similar to those of the standard school hours. How and when you administer those hours is up to you.

The OP readily admits though that she is not educating her DC. They're lying in bed late, not making it to structured activities on time, the DS is spending hours every day playing computer games and the DD is procrastinating endlessly - all of which seems to point to a lack of HE and a 'regime' similar to that which most DC experience during the school holidays. HE needs to be taken seriously - but the OP sounds like she pulled her DC out of their school without any kind of plan for how she would provide for their educational needs.

It all just works so differently from school. It really doesn't take anything like 6 hours a day. The most formal sit-down-and-fake-school families I know don't spend more than an hour or two a day with primary children, and that's more than enough to cover as much as can be covered in school in a day. HE is the most efficient kind of education there is - because it can be concentrated totally on exactly what the child wants and needs to know right now.

Concentrated conversations with my children about things that they want to learn, where I can see they are picking my brains, takes about an hour a day between the lot of them. Them doing stuff that you'd look at and say "that's definitely educational" maybe another hour or two each day for each of them? (I mean, they are choosing to do it but don't need my attention). That's a LOT of playtime left over. Time for social meet ups with other families, time to go for walks, HE meets, organised activities and trips.

Lots of us would describe our lifestyle as being like the middle week of the summer holidays all year round, yes. The most depressing thing about it is that children educated in this way go on to succeed in the next things they do (there are lists beginning to build up of where EHE children go next - training, higher education, jobs, running their own businesses), which makes me wonder what the point of all those years of formal schooling is for the vast majority of children? I mean, everyone could be living the life of Riley, playing for hours a day, developing their own passions and interests, rather than slogging it out over things that don't really interest them and that turn them off learning, and they'll never revisit later. It's like living through the looking glass, doing HE.

I mean, everyone could be living the life of Riley

I think you'll find that most people wouldn't actually WANT their DC at home 52 weeks a year. Your idea of the life of Riley sounds like hell to me! Plus, I don't for a minute think that I could deliver a good quality education to them.

As for it taking less time - well yes I can understand that because a lot of class time is wasted just trying to get everyone to sit still and listen. Plus, learning tends to take place at the pace of the slowest one in the room, which when you've got 30 in a room is pretty damn slow.

:)

omm

Just to prove your point and of course not boasting

H.ed has been absolutely the best thing for my dd, it has helped her achieve her dream. No way would she have been anywhere near it had she stayed at school as she was too tired to start work when she came home from school and she certainly wouldn't have been granted the time off to travel and perform as she has.
She has concentrated on music and her performance for 3 years now, much to the cost of an academic education, that she really didn't want.
When she joins the other gifted musicians at a very ss specialist music school in september I know she will pick up the school work and be able to manage.

Juneau you are correct I did pull my DC out of school without any kind of plan. Would you like to know why?

One evening I heard a loud bang on the upstairs landing and went to investigate. The noise was my DD (at the time still only 7 years old) falling as she tried to climb onto the bannisters. she had her dressing gown belt tied round her neck with the other end looped round the bannisters. I later found a beautifully handwritten set of instructions on exactly how to do this, which had been given to DD by the girl in her class that had been bullying her for 2 years. My DD never went back to that place ever again.

So yeah there was no plan to remove her it just happened and I fully stand by my choice to do that. It WAS the right thing to do. Her brother refused at that point to ever go back to that school too and tbh I don't blame him. Oh and when I informed the school they produced a drawing my DD had done of the other girl, dressed as superman but with 'poo' written on the cape instead of an S. apparently this was evidence that my DD was just as guilty of writing nasty notes...... I stopped listening to anything they had to say at that point.

Back to now and things aren't going great, I'll admit that, but they are just marginally better than last January. I have no idea if we will continue to HE or start looking at school places. My choice would be to try and make HE work and that would be the DC's choice too (I know you don't believe children should have a choice, earlier I was just answering a previous question about whether DS wanted to go to school or not) so I came on here looking for some advice on how to improve our situation. If I want to hear advice from people that knowing nothing about HE and will just tell me I'm a crap parent and to send the DC back to school, I can hear that a hundred times over in RL if I ask the right people.

Lakitu Christ on a bike. WHATEVER you achieve with your children, even if it is just a matter of helping them build up into being confident, happy people, you will be doing an infinitely better job than the professionals managed. In your shoes, I'd have lost every iota of trust in school as an institution.

It might be worth you starting a new thread, so you can ask for support from HEers without it turning into a debate thread, which this one seems to be threatening to on occasion (sorry for my part in that).

Lakitu

Are you ok?
I think you have done the best thing possible for your children, any sane person would have done the same.
I do hope you can move on from here and that people on here can help you, rather than put you down.
Your dc have been through a lot and your poor dd, I just had tears in my eyes.
No child should have to contend with this and you have saved her life through H.ed, so please don't doubt your ability to protect your dc.
I think your children should have a say in their education tbh, far better than telling them they have to attend school or have to H.ed.

I sit on the fence a lot with homeschooling - I think both sides often overstate their case and it depends on the child/school etc. Ie in my case it would certainly take more than 2 hours and me to be a lot more organised to replicate what my daughter gets from her amazing infant school (not that one needs to replicate, I suspect homeschoolers I know have a less intense day, cram less in, but gain hugely in a better pace of life, more play etc. Swings and roundabouts.)

Anyway - that was just to show I can be pro school and pro hs. In your case, yes the academics may have "slipped" but honestly you have done so well by your children given what they were going through. Knowing you have been on their side and not having to endure bullying is worth immeasurably more than being at exactly the "right" point on a line (and anyway they can catch up and go at a faster speed to get there when they want to.)

I just think you're in the middle of all the chaos and doing youself down, when really you need to congratulate yourself for getting through the last 2 years. IN your case its honestly not as if they'd have learnt more in school!! My daughter is currently learning tons, but I'm very aware its because she's happy and engaging with it - I'm sure there's children in her class for whom its not working as well, and if it wasnt working for her I'd pull her out. If they're in fear of being bullied they are just going through the motions and not learning.

If you do decide to go back to school you could certainly meet in advance with the school, discuss the issues they'd had and do a gradual introduction, but as you later say that isn't your plan then just have it as a "fall back" in a year or so (or however long) and try some different techniques for now.

What you have now isn't working long term, but you are surviving, they are fed, they're not bullied and tehy have you for support and well done x

Fucking hell OP. I'm so sorry :(

It is just unbelievable that a child could be so cruel and calculating. No wonder your DS said he wants to protect his sister.

It will take a long time to undo what this girl has done to your DD but having her self esteem rebuilt is far, far more urgent than schoolwork.

Lakitu: what a terrible experience for you all.

My friend's DGC is ahead of her class in maths, so he goes into the year above's maths classes and has done since reception.

I hope life gets easier for you all.

Im so sorry that happened to your dd. The school's reaction is just shocking. My dd was bullied too, its just heartbreaking.

However, that doesn't mean HE is the right think now. I agree with you pulling dd out, I did the same thing. Your dcs are not being educated, unless you swiftly turn this round which doesn't seem likely you are depriving them of an education. Totally disagree, that education can wait.

That's sickening. Did you inform the girl's parents?! I would want to know so I could get my sociopath child some help.

I hope you can figure it out, it sounds so stressful. I wish I had better advice!

That is sickening and I'm so sorry your DD had to go through that and I'm sorry if my replies upset you, given the circumstances you describe. I can assure you I would have been much gentler if you'd said what happened earlier on. I can completely understand why you withdrew her and your DS from that particular school.

My DC have not been HEd.

But what strikes me is that if you return your DC to school at present you wil get two school refusers rather than e HEd children.

Is your son diagnosed with ASD?
I would try to introduce a routine. Earlier bedtimes. Less screen time (cutting down). If this is your son's "destresser" then try to help him find other things to fix on, and other ways to destress.

I find car journeys are good places to talk. Find out what he wants to know more about. Then whatever it is work on that as the centre of education - use the internet to find out, watch films, visit places.

Similarily with your DD find out what she is interested in. Can she read? How well? You may have to go back to basics.

HE groups can be great, but they are not the only way to do things.

Ok, in the true spirit of Mnet can I please ask posters to help the OP with suggestions of moving forward, rather than suggesting the dc go straight back to school.
The OP may well decide that school will be the end result, but whether school or H.ed she needs help atm with regards to the dc behaviour, before she can tackle education or at least alongside education.

((Hugs)) I am so sorry to hear about what your kids went through, and the struggles you are now having as a family.

It does seem like the problems now stem from your son's reluctance to change activities and from his obsession with using the games console. I have no constructive advice for you on that, as neither of my children have been like that. I know that it isn't at all uncommon as I hear friends speak of similar problems. I overhear their conversations and have noticed that different solutions work for different kids. Sometimes one family finds a solution that works for them for a while, and then they need to change to a different one later.

I'll throw out a few solutions/viewpoints which have worked for some autonomously educating families whose kids had a major screen obsession, which might give you some ideas.

• Take it away completely, for several months or more. If it's an actual addiction then it won't be cured if still available in small doses, and may not go away in just a few weeks without the computer either.

• Let him use it as much as he wants, and make adjustments elsewhere so the family can tolerate it.

• Require him to do certain things early in the day in order to be allowed the computer later in the day.

• Don't require anything of him earlier in the day, but only allow the computer after a certain time. Never punish him by withholding the computer. If the computer is having some kind of calming effect or helping the child cope with difficulties in the rest of his life, it's counterproductive to take it away for bad behaviour, because that's just when he needs it most.

• Let him go on the computer first thing in the day, then switch it off say at noon. Because if you make him wait until noon to use it, the child will not ever settle to anything else because he's so focused on the computer time, so you may as well just let him have it first and get it out of the way. Also some people say that the use of screens later in the day interferes with sleep, so having them in the morning is better.

• Be guided by the child's mood. If he seems calmer and happier after spending a long time on the computer, it must be good for him. If he gets short-tempered after spending a long time on the computer, it must be bad for him.

It seems that there is no "magic bullet" that works for everybody all of the time, so you just have to try things until you find a solution you can all live with.

I am so sorry for what happened to your children.

It is clear putting them back into school isn't an option. But home ed at the moment isn't working well for you. I've seen many children successfully educated autonomously so not anti autonomous education at all. For it to work well though I think it needs parents and children to really engage and it sounds like that isn't happening.

Lets forget educational side for now, well-being and happiness are far, far more important and engaging in learning will be a by-product.

Tackling behaviour is your biggest issue. Saracen has given a list of suggestions that may help with the screen obsession. I will reiterate again though I think you need to go and speak to your GP. I know nothing of the drug Omm mentioned but I'd read up on it. You said the school had raised no issues regards ASD but to be honest the school sounds as much use as a chocolate teapot and it is not uncommon for children to 'cope' at school aka mask in a wall of silence so be left to get on with it but to present behaviours at home where they feel safe. I really hate to armchair diagnose but so much of what you say is ringing alarm bells even the early maths ability. It maybe nothing but perhaps the GP can help with accessing counselling to help manage anger or offer support for sleep issues.

You've not mentioned if there are any problems at childcare, are they supportive? Do you know any local home educators who could offer support? Do you get any practical help/support from family/children's dad?

It is hard to work, home educate and manage a home. At 8 and 9 though they should be able to tidy up after themselves and help with things such as putting away the laundry. With routines it should be possible to keep things ticking along. You need to let all but essentials go for a while though.

Work on engaging with your children. If your daughter is up before your son use that time together. No more 'just a minutes', if you are doing an absolutely unavoidable chore get her to come help and talk to you while you do it. In the evening if your daughter is going to bed, take an hour to have a cup of tea and sit with your son, play on the console with him even (this is the only way I would allow it in the evenings), talk to him positively about what he's doing. Maybe in time move it to watching a tv programme together or reading together.

Routine and boundaries are your basic building blocks. Doesn't mean you can't educate autonomously within a routine. I think most children feel more secure when they have some knowledge of what is coming next. You need to put these in place gradually (baby steps) and be ones you can stick to.

It is hard and I'd advise getting regular support from more specifically home ed forums (Mumsnet has a home ed Facebook group) and locally. We have a very busy local forum and many people don't actually attend any activities but still use the forum to access support, sure many areas are the same.

I really feel for you OP

I just wonder if you have tried using the computer addiction to get your Ds on to educational computer games, have you heard of Minecraft homeschool? Google it.

With my Ds when we hit a conceptual he doesn't grasp we always go to either youtube or a computer game. He is a visual learner he doesn't get auditory a lot of the time. Do you know what type of learner your child is?

I hope you're feeling better today OP.

I know it's difficult for you to get to HE groups but is there anyone you trust who could visit you for a playdate type thing? Just to do something different and maybe chat to other home edders who might have similar experiences and advice? It sounds like you feel all alone and if you can use the support of the home ed community you may feel better able to get through this.

hi op I he my 5 and my eldest is 7 and I have been through similar issues with games.

I have just taken them away for now.completely.

They do learn a lot of them but I think killer are more affected by them than others. They had a bad affect on my son, I actually didn't mind the amount of time he spent on them, he just seemed to be getting aggressive the more he went on them ( there were no violent ones, only mine craft/Mario etc) he is a different child without them. He won't miss out by not going on them, computers are designed to be user friendly e ough so that anyone can get the hang of them.you could always try when he's older.

apart from that I think you need to stop worrying about what they are doing. stop trying to force them into doing what you think they should be. leave them some interesting things lying around, get on with what you need to and get involved when they ask you too.

Also they are old enough to help out. my oldest 3 make their own beds, wash up the non sharp tho gs, put things away after using them.tidy their rooms before bed. They need to be reminded and sometimes moan but I help them and it gets done quicker.stay positive.

you don't need to accept behaviour like sitting at the top of the stairs shouting. go up there. tell him firmly that behaviour is wrong.

sorry for typos.

also op, it will take time. nothing works straight away so stick at it.