I feel HE isn't working out for us :(

[Lakitu]

Hi, thanks for taking time to read this. I don't have anyone in RL that I can talk to about it as no one was supportive of my decision to HE, so they will just say 'I told you so'

I took my 2 Dc out of school 1 year ago, for a mixture of reasons. Mainly it was to do with Dd being bullied and falling way behind due to the amount of time she was spending out of class due to that and being in trouble for bad behaviour nearly every single day. I was going to leave her brother in school, but he refused to go if his sister wasn't there.

So 1 year on and I really can't see that the pair of them have learnt anything in the time since they left school. I am certain that DS at least would have learnt many things in this time, if in school. Instead all he does each day is play computer games. If I take them away he will scream, shout, hit and kick and refuse to do anything else.

DD has obviously benefitted from not being bullied and constantly being told she is a bad person every day. If I try to do any learning work with her though, she will often whine and cry so I stop. she can't cope with anything harder than basic addition or writing a few words. Any encouragement to try anything a little harder leads to her switching back to the mindset she had in school, that she is stupid and bad and everyone hates her. It is truly terrible thing to hear a young child saying.

Basically I feel like the whole idea of HE hasn't really worked for us. I am to blame for the most part as I don't seem to be able to organise anything that works well for us at all. Too often I have to leave the DC to their own devices as I have unending number of other tasks to do. Really I should be setting up all sorts of fun learning opportunities for them, but by the time I manage that they have lost interest or (in DS's case) would still rather just play a computer instead.

Anyway self-indulgent moaning over, should I be sending them both back to school? Or (I'm really hoping) is there anything else I could try to make HE work?

Squeebles apps are fab for numeracy and spelling, you can control what questions are available so it's great for confidence. Same with Mystery Math Town/Mystery Math Museum

I have one "inattentive" potentially screen addict child who hates learning things by himself (unless it is something to do with airports or Top Gear). I have been home educating him for a year. He is 12 and has HFA. A hard person to motivate in many ways.

I've definitely struggled with the housework. I'm not a routine person and I haven't found it easy to tick off the chores. In fact I am in admiration of you doing so much first thing AND getting paid work in later in the day. So first step is - remember how capable you are for doing all that.

Then. I've looked at quite a lot of books about autonomous free range education and they do not necessarily advocate unlimited access to the computer or telly without parental prescence. They predispose quite a lot of time spent doing stuff with your children (not necessarily educational stuff in the strict sense) but nevertheless just interacting with them in some form. I've found that is true of the time I spend with ds2 - even we are doing "rubbish" like watching Masterchef together we are learning things because we are talking and laughing and conversing. And we have something to talk about together afterwards too.

Ds has benefited hugely from getting out. He started off anxious and impatient because he didn't know what we would be doing and who we would be with. But the pleasure of running around with other children soon trumped being on the computer for him. I would struggle massively if we weren't able to meet up with other people with children - not necessarily exactly the same age but just other children who are also home educated (or even after school would work if that suited you better) These are people I've only met in the last 7 months. Ds2 is cheerful but he is not good with people - he has a social communication disorder talks v loudly interrupts not at all popular at school YET he loves these groups. He needs the chance to hang out with others. He finds it much easier than in school because everyone seems to be less judgemental (and they are just running around - not much to go wrong there)

Routine. Ds likes to know if he is doing work and when. Same approx. time every day 9.30 onwards. We concentrate on microskills. Reading writing. A book of fiction I read aloud and he listens and discusses a page or two every day. I say discuss but what I mean is I remind him that he is meant to be listening as well as playing with lego by asking him a few questions or making comments. Phonics 10 mins a day. Maths one day a week. Geography History Art Science (and not much of those mind you) on different days of the week. We really don't do much but he knows that we are meant to do at least 1-2 hours of "work"/tasks a day. If it's Tuesday he knows we are on Art day. He is not a natural arts and crafter because he thinks he is terrible at writing and drawing. He is naturally reluctant to put his pen to the page. So I am very careful but I try and push him to do "something" which makes him feel proud of himself. A page of spelling. Copying a drawing. Dating and writing his name on every piece of work he does. Mostly workbooks. So minimal but to give him the feeling he has his "work" and he should feel pleased with himself. This is someone who really felt very negative about school work.

I make him do chores. Okay he is older but with freedom comes responsibility. He is free of school but he is therefore even more responsible for what happens in the household, as your children should be. Just little chores - rubbish plates putting washing in.

We don't do great shakes with the education. But I am amazed when I think of all the topics we have covered just by serendipity and chatting and being out and about. He likes thinking we have done some work. No-one wants to be a dosser.

Switch off the computer. Set parental controls. Say no computer till 5pm say. And off 3 hours before bedtime. It is affecting his sleep probably (melatonin is suppressed by the blue light on a computer screen)

He doesn't sound at all happy being in charge.

You sound like an amazing person to have taken on such a big challenge - I think sometimes when you are a new home educator it can be difficult to get to the "balance" and "autonomy" that some home educators have spent many years perfecting. It might make everyone much happier to have a bit of very low key structure to start off with - copy a poem colour a picture read a story and talk about it and not set yourself such high stakes like projects. Or just set yourself the goal of going for a short walk with the kids (they usually need some reason to go for a walk though - be warned - you might need to start with bribes of café or shop) And when things have calmed down who knows?

There is a lovely book called Hitchhiking Through Asperger's (which might ring some bells with your daughter) about balance between structure and autonomous with a more demanding child.

itsbetterthan I know a lot of autonomously home educated children. The parents are involved, answering questions, providing resources, making suggestions. The children are in charge of their own learning.

A lot of them go to college in their teens, (and often onto uni or straight into vocational training). Anecdotally, such teens absolutely shine. They are self directed, highly self motivated, independent learners.

But that's not what is happening here. And these kids aren't teens.

Oh, ignore my ramblings, just listen to swanhilda. There's wisdom right there.

We are actually quite "free" (and I would say we spend an awful lot of time not doing anything especially "productive" in a the conventional sense) but ds is happy, active and goes to bed on the dot at 9pm also his literacy has vastly improved since being at home . I do not let ds play computer games for a reason. It stops him being bored enough to want to do anything else. Being bored is good for children. It encourages their curiosity and helps them potter.

Autonomous learning happens for just about all children up to age 2 or 3. They learn to walk, talk, balance, jump, run, develop fine motor skills.

Then we put them in professionalised child care settings and act as if they need adults to decide what they should learn and how, for years on end.

And then they go to university, and are told they are supposed to be self motivated, independent learners again.

Autonomous home educators just miss out that middle, top down, bit. I trusted my children to learn to walk and talk. How about if I trust them to learn to read their own way too? Well, blow me down, as long as they are in a literacy using home, they blooming do do it themselves in their own time.

Pegleg

What a lovely post , so many people jump to the "send them back to school" philosophy, i think they forget that school was just not right for some people.

Your suggestion is good and worked on my dd, unethical or not.
i think if it has been their choice to be H.ed they should know if it isn't working you can go back again.
Obviously different for those who school was the biggest nightmare though.

Lakitu

Today you took the first step and it will get better I promise.
We have been really tough on dd as her behaviour hasn't been good at all, but completely different circumstances to you.
It is hard when you can't seem to make it work how you feel it should and of course the behaviour wears you down, with dd is the constant argument, answering back and attitude.

Do you think your dc would behave the same if they attended school?
I think my dd would, but I'd obviously only have to put up with it for a few hours rather than all day and half the night.
What helped me was to revisit all the reasons why dd wanted to leave school and we talk quite a lot now on how to make it work and her behaviour is improving.

I try not to expect too much from her academically and worry how she will manage when she starts school again. She must be quite a way back in levels.

Unless you are thinking of going back to school anytime soon I would lay off the learning from a structured point of view and carry on taking them out.
limit the screen time, just as many parents have to do for dc who attend school.

I've thought of something else

One of my theories about home education is that you get to see your child as they really are. Warts and all. Sometimes this can be disguised when they go to school. But, Suddenly you are confronted with all the problems/attitude/bad behaviour in a very concentrated form especially if school has actually made them unhappy and "toxic" for want of a better word.

However this is actually a blessing. Now is the chance to work out what you want your relationship to be with them.

I think you are probably doing fine with dd. The issue you are struggling with is your ds. He is arguing with you all the time and to top it all making you exhausted because he never goes to bed.

I think everything else is going to hinge on solving that problem. The house being tidy, dealing with dd all that can wait. You need to put all your energies into getting him on your side. Could he just be completely at sea with what your plan is? Maybe he doesn't know what it is you want him to be doing with his day? Maybe he wants to see people - just not the people on offer? Could you talk it through with him? Is computer his safe space? Is there another safe space that might wean him off it - a telly programme you could engage with as a family? And thence to some other communal activity? Cold turkey is hard. However it may be necessary if you are feel so angry with each other. And you sound very angry with yourself and him.

Aw thanks morethan I have only been HEing a very short time but it did cross my mind that I may need to say something similar to DS if the whinging gets worse :o

He is free of school but he is therefore even more responsible for what happens in the household

I love that! I think that could be key for you OP, it seems you are needing to keep the DCs occupied while you do everything that needs doing, which I always found exhausting. Again, I am no expert at all but so far I've found that getting the DCs to help out more has, despite the moaning that comes with it (and the fact that the chores take longer when children are doing them!), really increased their confidence as they get more independent. I don't expect much as they are young but now I'm making more effort to let them make their own lunch etc it's really helping me too. Also if you have to keep them entertained while you do chores I guess they are more likely to get engrossed in a console etc so I don't know maybe insisting on them helping you might be worth it?

Although i have no experience of HE several things about your posts are jumping out at me.

Screen time - this seems to be a massive battle and i would imagine (knowing my own sons attitude after just half an hour with a tablet/computer) that this is the root of a lot of your issues. Does he do a lot of online gaming? Changing the password of your wifi and letting them have the code once everything YOU need them to do is done works wonders with our nine year old.

it seems that what you and they desperately need is structure, knowing what to exoect and what happens next. having a whole day ahead of you is daunting.

in your shoes i'd probably try something like...
Establish a breakfast 'curfew' finished breakfast by 9 at the latest or they dont get anything til lunch.
Set 'learning' hours in the AM Learning hours can still be totally driven by them but I would personally make it screen free as much as possible where appropriate. Youcan ask them At the end of each daily session what they'd like to do the next day amd then they help you get it organised.
Lunch
Chores your post that stated ' In just an hour this morning, while I was cleaning one room, DD has turned another room into a tip and there are toys all over the upstairs landing. this happens every time she is left to play on her own, yet if I stay with her all that time then nothing else can get done and I'm always playing catch up.' This implies that YOU clean up her mess?? Sorry if i have that wrong, but OMG if i dont them stop doing it lady!

even our 4 year old can tidy his toys away after himself. You are being too lovely with her and its not helping either of you as you are exhausted and she is notlearning that she has a place in your households daily rotine.

Your kids are both old enough to help out round the house, should be clearing uo their own mess AND doing some extras. My 9 y/O sets and clears the table after every meal, ditto fills and empties the dishwasher, feeds the animals, tidies the playroom once a week, and hoovers the entire downstairs twice a week. She is also responsible for tidying away anything she gets ot, sorts and hoovers her own room and putting away her laundry etc. she's about to take over cooking a meal once a week too (at her own request) . We've worked hard to get here but She now gets that we are a family, that if she wants to ride or go to her sports club and have sleepovers and people to stay or do something fun at the weekend then she has to do her fair share too. She doesnt always do it without moaning but she is learning to organise her time and be a self sufficient member of the family, which is crucial. She gets £3 a week pocket money if all these chores are done without too much moaning and an hour on the ipad at the weekend. We change the wifi password every week, she gets the new one when she gets her pocket money. :)

The four year old tidies his room once a week and the playroom, and helos his sister set the table and clear the dishes. (He also LOVES to wash up...we'll see how long that lasts. :)

Honestly, you are not the family slave, and if you are all at home all day I can imagine how messy it gets.

Fun- after everything else and only if they have cooperated withthe above!

I dont mean any of this harshly, but you really need to lay down some house rules, the first being that respect sits at the centre of every family, and that means everyone pulls their weight...and that they listen if you say no more screen time. You are their parent, and the sulking and throwing things when he doesnt get his own way are toddler-like behaviours that you cant afford to accept. If he has a structured time of day when he knows he will be allowed it then that should help. But he needs to know that Although he is not formally schooled there is still an adult at the helm of his day...

Swanhilda speaks a lot of sense, and she is right, you were brave to take this on and withsome tweaking you canmake it work!

Would also second squeebles, they have been fab for the eldest and she now loves her tables!

I would get the internet cut off and sell your son's stuff, tbh. He is absolutely addicted and this will affect him whether he's home educated or educated in school.

You need to accept you have completely lost control and there is no education taking place. You have to get them enrolled in school asap. There is no other choice. I've no idea why people can decide to HE without any kind of check on them with regard to their suitability to HE, their child's suitability to be educated at home, the resources available, the temperament of all concerned, etc. Frankly this is chaos and no learning is taking place.

For their sake (and your own) get them into school.

Also I should've said if you decide to do the family meeting type thing make sure you time it carefully especially with DS to make sure he's in a vaguely receptive mood

I don't HE and this may come across as hopelessly naïve, but could you present DS with a list of what he is to accomplish every day and then only let him have the computer when the list is complete?

It's very difficult to compare screen time with regard to school children and HE as being in school for x hours a day naturally limits them, no wonder they seem 'addicted' when they get home. Lots of adults also need to unwind after a day at work and some choose to sit on an iPad/watch DVd's/read a book or whatever.

On that note, I wonder what the feeling would be in terms of screen issues if you replace the word screens with books? Imagine the reaction to parents who limited books to only an hour a day or only after he had completed other things or only after 5pm etc...!!!! Would there be such outrage if a child wanted to read books for 4 or 5 hours a day?? This is not meant to seem negative towards any parent that does make the above suggestions by the way (each does their best for their own DC), just as a consideration - the scaremongering around screen time is phenomenal!

OP, I would really try to be more available, in terms of your presence - chores can wait, or do as much as you can say before DC get up or after lunch or whenever and then stop, sit with DS and watch him play, engage with his games, find out about them...take an interest. You might also be surprised with how much he learns from them! Same for DD.

I'm rushing this post as we are in the middle of making some play doh for a tea party, but Lakitu, please don't worry, join some of the wonderful FB groups and read read read some more about autonomous education/unschooling if you decide this is the approach that suits your DC best.

But Mumstheword, reading a book is an utterly different cognitive experience to playing on a screen based game? I dont see how the two could possibly be compared?

Serious question from one with no HE experienced, is it really possible to HE properly if you are out at work for half the day and the kids are in childcare (what type btw?).

Does your son actually enjoy being at home and then childcare for the day? If you offered him the chance to return to school he may surprise you and jump at it.

Oh wow loads of replies thank you all, I've tried to read through them all but I'll go back and read them through again when I have more time.

I think I should clarify that DS's obsessions with playing computer games actually started AT school. up until then he had never played one at home or anywhere else, but because when he started Reception year him and another boy were far ahead of the others in maths (could add, subtract up to 3 digit numbers and knew all times tables at age 4) they were allowed to play unsupervised on the computers while the other children were taught. No doubt they were meant to be using the educational games during this time, but it came to light later they weren't as I was told by the other boy's parents he had been watching videos of games rated 18 (Call of duties?)on the school internet. I had no idea until that point that my DS wasn't being taught any maths at school.

At home DS does not have any access to the internet or play any online games. He is not interested in these at all. we have got the Minecraft game but he tried it a few times and said it was boring. The same with the few other games loaded on the PC, he rarely wants to play those as they are boring (most are educational type games mentioned above) its the console type computer games he likes, in particular the Ds console his GPs bought him for Christmas. since he got that he has been obsessed with playing it 24/7. Up until last weekend I had banned him from it for 2 weeks and he has now lost it indefinitely. It doesn't stop him from asking for it all day, every day though while refusing to do anything else.

When he was in school it was no different. I had the same struggles to get him up and out on time in the mornings just as I do now, only once he was there I had a few extra hours break from it. As soon as he came out of school he would demand to play computers again. This is when he began hitting/kicking me if I refused. Obviously that meant he didn't get them, but no matter how many times it happened, he would still continue asking. No amount of punishments or sticker charts (for good behaviour) or any other strategies I have tried over the years has ever changed that.

Same for going to sleep at night. Since he dropped day time naps when he started nursery, he very rarely was asleep before 9pm. That's not because I didn't put him to bed or make sure he stayed there because I did and still do. I'm just not physically able to pick up and carry an 8 year old back to bed 30 times a night like I did when he was 3. We do still have a bedtime routine and winding down time before bed. They will both be in their rooms for 8pm and DD will be asleep by 8.30. I can't magically make DS do the same though and he will keep going for hours and hours after this time. Again no amount of sanctions etc. has ever changed this and as he gets older it gets later and later before he sleeps. This is the same whether he has access to computers or not (most of the time he doesn't) only difference being when he has them, he will be quiet playing them not shouting at me or worse.

The window donkey, it's not about comparing the experience of each, it's about the value of each.

Lakitu: it may have got lost in the other replies, but seriously, get him some melatonin. I know so many families whose lives have been revolutionised by supplementing this hormone that their children just don't produce enough of.

I'd be taking baby steps in your shoes. It is worth spending about 20 minutes a day completely on the agenda of one child or another, being with them, responding to what they are doing, playing whatever silly games they want, or just watching over their shoulder. No judging, no guiding, just connecting exactly on their level. At one point, you're there thinking "oh my God, this child could bore for England about this particular console game" and then after that you begin to look at it, and you see their passion, and you begin to appreciate their skill, and you can begin to build on that in the conversation. You can ask questions about what they are doing - they are working out how to answer them which, although it's fun, also breaks their monofocus on the screen. It gives you something to talk about with them when they are off screen, which makes being off screen easier.

It might take some time to build up trust between you.

Are there books or comics associated with these consoles? Spin off toys? Ways of creating models of the game characters in lego or blocks or something else? Imaginative games you can join in with which are all about these consoles? Can he start creating cartoons based on the consoles (I recommend GoAnimate), or working out how to put the theme songs into button bass, or anything else - it's totally worth encouraging him to develop that sort of thing. Watching youtube videos about the game is also a great way of moving through the levels faster and learning cheats (and before you know it he'll be on Minecraft via StampyBloodyLongHead like everyone else, and there's no denying the benefits of that game!)

And yes, it seems crazy from a top down, curriculum mentality point of view, but it really has been my experience that meeting a child in their obsession is a really good way of taking the anxiety out of it for the parent, and also helping the child to move beyond it into other activities WHEN THEY ARE READY (not on the parental timescale).

What's your long term goal? If you want to raise an adult who is immune to gamer addiction - serious addiction, I mean - then it might be best to be with him while he works out how to interact with gaming in a healthy way at a point where you are there to guide and help, rather than turning it into forbidden fruit which becomes a point of conflict through his teens.

Also worth thinking about the way that a closed gamer environment is actually a really safe space for children to be when they are children who are struggling with other parts of the world. There's a good reason why so many people on the autistic spectrum are gamer geeks - and so it's worth thinking about whether taking games away is actually the equivalent of removing a comfort toy from a child, or forcing a child with a broken leg to walk 2 miles without crutches.

I'm really just thinking aloud here, in case anything here is helpful. I should say: we don't limit screen time in my family, or only by being out of the house. The result is that each child has gone through a period (about a year) when they are very interested in screens indeed, and have got through that to a point where a screen is just one of the options - they are equally likely to be getting on with all kinds of other, more socially acceptable, stuff. They learned to be in control themselves; as parents, we just had to hold our nerve (and yes, bedtimes were a crunch point with one of my children for a while, and we DID have arguments over turning the computer off at bedtime, and I don't have an easy solution to that for you, but we did get through it in the end...)

I asked DS if he would like to go back to a school and he says no. Only scenario he would if is DD was there also as he would go to protect her from bullies apparently.

Oh and the child care they go to is linked to my work (but not just for employee's children) In the mornings (term time) its just nursery kids but from 2.30 and in holidays they have older children up to age 14 including a lot that my DC used to go to school with. They do a whole range of stuff there like arts and crafts, cooking, sports and have a big adventure playground to play in outside, plus loads of other toys indoors and a soft play bit too.

You don't need to justify the childcare. It sounds fine :)

Baby steps, lady, baby steps.

Imperial

School didn't work for these children, afair they were there long enough and gave school a big enough chance.
Unfortunately, school is not the right environment for many children.

OP your DC aren't learning anything under your current regime. I'm not against HE, per se, but I think if its going to be a success you have to be very organised about it and treat it as your job and your DC have to treat the hours of the normal school day as their hours of study/activity, even if they are doing things that they probably wouldn't be doing if they were at school sat at a desk.

TBH, if I was in your shoes, I'd get them both enrolled in a new school asap - preferably to start after Easter (or before if possible) - and in the meantime I would sell the Nintendo DS so that these tedious arguments could end once and for all and do as the other posters have suggested and get out of the house every single day. You need a routine (if you suspect your DC are on the autistic spectrum then they probably need this more than other DC), and start doing at least one educational thing per day. You can't just have them at home playing computer games while you do the housework - that's not HE - that's pulling them out of school and letting them sit around at home and, quite frankly, that's utterly irresponsible. These are your DC's years for learning, not playing computer games and arguing with you. You just don't seem to have the authority to do what you're trying to do - they're running rings around you - and that's benefiting no one.