Regretting taking kids out of school.

[apocketfulofposy]

Posting here for traffic,sorry.

I have 5 children ranging from aged 6 to 10 weeks old.

We always planned to home educate after reading a book about it when ds1 and 2 were toddlers,then when ds1 was about 4 and a half,and i was pregnant with baby number 4,i decided to give our local primary a go,partly because it was just that time where he would of been going and partly because i was finding it hard with them all at home (no family on either side for 3 hours,husband who works away monday to friday,rural ish area,i cant even drive!).

Anyway reception was ok,he liked it,made plenty of friends,dc2 and 3 went to the pre school and liked it,except dc2 had lots of issues with hitting other children and just general destructive behaviour.

When ds1 started yr1 last year he hated it from the word go,he still liked seeing his friends but he really noticed the change between mostly play to mostly lessons,plus his teacher left after a term and the new one was very strict and spoke to the children like she was some kind of prison officer.

Ds2 started reception and seemed to enjoy it but after a few weeks i was called in a few times about his hitting and destroying things,they said he just physically wasnt ready to be at schoolt hat much so put him down to half days,which was a bit of a faff for me as i was in and out all day but it was fine.It didnt seem to help though and he was behaving worse and worse at school,especially at lunchtime,but strangely his behaviour at home was getting better.

Add to this the fact i was finding it hard carting them all around everywhere and i felt crap because i kept forgetting to reply to things and i kept hearing all this micheal gove stuff,i just decided to pull them out,id been thinking about it on and off for a while and just thought do it,and id id it almost on a bit of a whim.

The first few weeks were great and we all loved the novelty of not rushing around in mornings and the kids have been playing all day,and actually one good point is that they have been getting on so much better.

But apart from that i am starting to regret taking them out,i miss the routine,i miss being able to take the babies to their groups and talking to my "mummy friends"(cringe) i miss being able to go to the shop quickly with just the double buggy,i also just dont know what to do with them,and the house is just such a mess!

I know these are'nt huge things but its starting to feel chaotic and i can feel it going back to the way it used to be,before school,and it hink i underestimated how much it did for all of us.I just dont know what to do!

Help and advice please!xxxxx

Seven - only if you have been brought up to view having no exam qualifications as a failure....

Do you agree that having a lack of formal quals has impeded your dh's ability to run his own business? Or do you think his problems stem from his feelings of inadequacy because he has been told that, in this particular society?

A child raised in a community where certification is is optional is not going to have the hang-ups that your dh has?

And if he feels this has impeded him, he can study with ou, evening classes, MBA?

He has the choice to get qualifications, in the same way that a child or youth (or ten, or adult) in the Home Ed community does?

But it's a choice - dependent on what your own values are, and what you perceive you need to do whatever it is you want to do?

And some HE kids choose to take exams. Some don't.

Your dh didn't have that choice, because it was made for him. By the age of exams and certificates, kids in the HE community will be making those choices for themselves. Having been empowered by their families and communities to do so.

Not forced to, or forced not to.

Again, your horror is misplaced.

arabella. He is not a failure! And most certainly does not see himself as such!

Doesnt stop him knowing the fact that no qualifications means getting into another profession is more problematic.

Other points. His self employment means he is very very busy. He wouldnt and never has had time for evening courses.

Sevensev:

LA should[and I am no LA expert], be checking up on HE families,say once a term. And having a look both at work acheived and having informal talks with the HE children themselves.

On what do you base that legally? And on what do you base that educationally? I am wondering what it is that you know that others have somehow overlooked. You saw my link to the guidelines used by LAs further up thread, so you can tell us on what basis you make the judgement (a) that we have all (including LA staff and law courts) misunderstood the existing legislation or (b) failed to see - as you must see given your claim that inspection of this nature is crucial - where the current legislation is fatally flawed, and what policy makers have failed to advocate successfully and then enact through statute law in order for your vision to come about.

And why should kids be educationally thwarted in this way.

Are you always such a glass half empty type?

It is my understanding that about 58% of school educated children obtain 5 gcse's at a c or above.

According to a interesting HE researcher I have just spoken to on the phone for home educated children it's about 80% who take exams and about 81% who get 5 or more c and above gcse's

She has very kindly agreed to email me the report so I can have a good old nosey through it and decide if I place any value on it or not.

The problem we have is most of the information we have available is us based I'm interested in the UK and to the best of my knowledge we have a few research projects that have been obtained on behalf of various education ministers a bit more that was something to do with the welsh assembly last year,along with a few people whose doctorate's are in HE and a handful of publications so not a huge amount, of course not having a lot does not mean the quality of what we do have is lacking.

ommmward. Individuals on here and rl are allowed to express their opinions.

I am not going to get into a law word war with you!

The problem with the HE/school debate is that both sides end up polarised. HE can be wonderful. But it can also be crap. And so can school. In my experience, HEers who find it wonderful find it very difficult indeed to be anything but very strongly negative about school, and the people who use them. And also find it very difficult to accept that there are negatives to HE. I suppose this is because if you a in a minority position you do tend to pull up the drawbridge. This thread is a case in point. The OP is in a very difficult position indeed- and, as they say, probably shouldn't have started from where she started. But is is just as unhelpful to say "what's the problem- everything will be fine!" as to say "oh, my God- send them straight back to school" I can see why she lashed out- people were ridiculously rude. But the automatic assumption that children are better off not at school regardless of the circumstances isn't helpful either.

That was kind of my point - he isn't a failure, and he doesn't have any qualifications. But somehow he perceives him as lesser...

Why thwarted?

Your dh's education was thwarted. HE kids are not thwarted in any way. If they want to study a subject and sit an exam, they do.

If he wants to change career, he does what everyone else has to do - and take a course. However busy he is. A child who travels through the state education system and follows a specific employment route would have to do the same.

I can't think of many fields that would be served by the very basic qualifications that he would have left school with, unless something requiring maths or English gcse. Anything else, and he would probably be looking at retraining anyway. Hard to contextualise without knowing what he wants to do, though. Or why he feels disadvantaged. In any case, his feelings are probably not relevant to an HE child able to sit exams if they wish, however hard he feels life has been as a result. And however coloured your viewpoint is as a result of his feelings.

Schooled parents often have a really hard time understanding anything autonomous. It goes against their life-long state brainwashing.

As a mature student, he wouldn't necessarily have to produce the exam results that school-leavers do to access higher level programming. Time is an entirely adult issue. We all have that problem.

As I said, my kids are schooled. But I am familiar enough with both systems to find adults unable to accept other people's pov quite sad. (And also aware of the irony of making that statement whilst espousing a particular view, lol)

I'm sorry your dh didn't have a choice. But HE gives children choices, it doesn't remove them. And some he kids choose to return to school.

I can see that schooling is easier in terms of dealing with cultural expectations and going for an easy life. That's enough for some people. And that's okay. I have nothing against those who choose schooling. I do. I do worry about those adamant that it's the One True Path to success, though.

I would have thought the HE community is very different in the USA, and not really comparable to here. A lot of HE families in the USA do so for religious reasons.

"Im not going to post on here anymore as theres too many people who haver no idea what they are talking about,just silly mainstream middle aged women clutching their pearls "

Nice, OP. This silly mainstream middle-aged woman thinks you sound quite immature.

Educational as it is, surely most children who play minecraft do so in addition to going to school?

That grennie is why I'm only interested in uk stuff.

Sevensev: ok, I will try it another way, and take your idea seriously by asking you to expand on it:

1. why do you think that there should be inspections of home educated children and their work by state officials three times a year?

1. How would that benefit the children? What positive thing would they get out of it, I mean?

1. Can you think of instances where it would be a negative and damaging experience for children to have state officials come in three times a year rather than a positive one?

1. What sort of qualifications would those state officials need to have in order to come to a legitimate judgement about the suitability of the educational provision, especially given any SEN of the children?

1. What steps would the state officials need to be legally empowered to take if they judged the educational provision lacking? What might the financial implications of that be? (remember the SEN issue...)

1. What implications might such steps have for who holds legal responsibility for the education of children, and why might the State shy away from taking such responsibility?

You don't have to answer these questions - I know they come across as pretty aggressive - you see, we've HAD these conversations with policy makers, MPs, law lords, LA staffers, educational experts, and it's once we get towards question 6 that they start saying "oh, yeah, ok. Well, carry on, then."

That's very true, Grennie. If it was regarding John Holt, the parallels were being drawn regarding mass state education, not culturally specific HE communities.

HE is such an individual thing that you can just link to whichever community appeals, as and when they do, or not. Obviously people who do it for the same reason (ie narrow religious viewpoint) will set up their own groups. HE for religious reasons is more common in North America.

Unfortunately the issues with mass state education, whether North American or British, seem to be similar since it was invented.

He wouldnt have left school with just basic qualifications.

Your scenarios only work if a person is going to be self employed all the way to aged 70.

And my DH works 80 hour weeks. Has to to keep it all going. So no chance of all this studying that you are talking about.

Being self employed often is far removed from 9 - 5 hours.

HE kids should all sit exams imo.[unless the child has additional needs]
Am shocked that 19% of HE children do not.

Educational as it is, surely most children who play minecraft do so in addition to going to school?

Many do, many also do it AT school many do it as part of their education during their learning hours some may do it for fun, and yes I'm sure some CME may also use it.

In 'How Children Fail' by John Holt his observations started in February 1958 and the last one in June 1961. I was in an English primary school for that entire period and it was nothing at all like his experiences.

I find it strange that HEers get fed up with all the criticism from the general public and yet university tutors and employers are falling over themselves to admit or employ the home educated child. It doesn't add up-university tutors and employers are part of that general public, some will fall over themselves to be helpful but others will be deeply prejudiced and the child will have to work harder to overcome it.

I would think that most are somewhere in the middle and take each on their merit, understanding the one thing that HEers will never, ever admit to-that some do an excellent job and some are utterly dire.
Everyone is happy to point out and identify bad schools, no one will ever do it to HEing parents. The dire ones exist-I know some! (and some excellent ones too)

I'm not at all surprised that 19% don't take exams, Sevensev. I can assure you that many more than 19% of home educated children have special needs. THAT'S WHY SCHOOL IS SO DISASTROUS FOR SO MANY OF THEM!!!!! Vocational skills and training may be much more suitable for such young people than GCSEs.

HE kids should all sit exams imo.[unless the child has additional needs]
Am shocked that 19% of HE children do not

If you think all children should sit exams why should children with additional needs be exempt? Should they not be given the help they need to sit them?

You know not all children in schools sit exams,don't you?

Once or twice some HEers have come out and admitted they know some people who are failing their children. It is very refreshing. Most will have a code where you can't say it.

Why should they?

I don't think you are understanding my point that your dh's situation is in no way relevant to HE.

HE children can choose to sit their exams if they wish. As can your dh now. He chooses not to. (I am aware that his 'choice' now may be limited by financial or familial obligations - in - I assume - the same way that his parents were forced to make the choice to remove him from school in the first place).

My scenario works if people seek the education they need (or desire) for whatever it is they want. And adopt their goals appropriately. And continue to do this throughout life.

Your scenario sees completely uninterested 15yos forced to sit through basic science and throw ink cartridges. A Home educated 15yo may already have completed their science gcses and be working towards a biology a level.

Your view of Home Education is completely inaccurate, and also shows woeful ignorance of the 'benefits' of compulsory education for a frightening amount of teens who are destined to leave school with poor exam results in any case. (Some of whom have become so disenfranchised with the state system that they MAY have been better off, and achieved better exam results, if they had been taken out of school earlier and educated themselves autonomously). Have you been in a comprehensive school to witness yr 9 classes recently?

It's all theoretical, though. Secondary school classes appal me. There HAS to be a better way of creating citizens.

(As an aside - two of my three have additional needs and are, in US parlance, twice exceptional. To link kids with additional needs with poor exam results or no qualifications is as dangerous as making assumptions about poor thwarted HE kids.)