Is it a myth that School "socializes"?

[swanthingafteranother]

I have three dcs who have been through primary. Two have failed to make any close friends, although they have acquaintance/friends. One (dd, 10) has three close friends. They all seem to quite enjoy school because it gives them a framework in which to see people. However, I would not say that school has given them "socialising skills" as such. These were innate. My eldest has gone to secondary and now has behaviour problems due to misunderstanding other people, talking AT them etc. He still likes school though, but the "friends" have not materialised. He was just crying last night because an old acquaintance hadn't invited him to his party.

I suppose I am just feeling that school offers all sorts of things, but to claim it makes children better at getting on with people is wrong.

Ds2 has ASD recently diagnosed. He likes school - he likes being busy, and he likes structure/teachers. But his academic work is suffering through lack of close supervision.
So far no-one has ever invited him round for a playdate (he is 10), and he only gets invited to one or two parties a year. So from a socialization point of view school has achieved very little.

So why do people bang on about how school teaches you to make friends. I wonder if it doesn't create this artificial environment where children make friends despite being in a classroom.

The important social element of school is not only about making friends, it's about learning to interact with people, learn empathy, negotiation, cooperation, listen to others, be assertive, sometimes take a leadership role, many other things. Schools should focus on these things, although I don't know if they do. These are all important for your child later to function in society. People don't (normally) live in isolation.

Experiences like disappointment at not being invited to a party are vital learning experiences.

I found that once we left school, the children, especially my dd were much much happier, and finding a lot more like minded friends. Not being invited to parties, standing alone in the playground, and being rejected doesn't really teach a child anything apart from low self esteem. A child doesn't need to have the reality that other people can be cruel to those who are slightly different, foisted upon them repeatedly at a young age. People are generally a lot more accepting once they mature a little.

However, friends from dance classes, football, and other out of school activities have been confidence boosting and beneficial to my dc's.

My dd has some medical issues, which differentiated her from the pack, and was absolutely isolated and miserable at school. She is much happier being homeschooled, even if it is a lot more work and worry for me!

I can understand how it might be different with a child who has particular medical issues. But I think sometimes not being invited to parties and standing alone in the playground do not have to be harmful unless we make children upset about it. Language like 'failure to make friends' suggests to me that that could be an issue. The low self esteem can come from a parent making a child feel like a social failure, or being overly worried about it and transmitting these vibes to the DCs.

Not being invited to a party doesn't have to mean low self esteem. It is an opportunity to talk listen to your child talking about hose feelings. Children have to experience some sadness. If you isolate them from it all their childhood, thay will have big problems as adults.

A child who spends playtime after playtime alone feels the rejection and pain of not being included, it is nothing to do with how the parent handles the situation. Being rejected by the "group" is in itself traumatic and unpleasant for any child. Why does a child need to learn "sadness" and have that lesson reinforced 5 days a week, 6 hours a day. Education and socialisation should be a joy, not a harsh lesson in the lessons of life when you are not automatically accepted.

All those important social elements bugster mentions have been really interesting to watch developing in my children.

None of them has ever been near a school in their life.

And yeah, I'm not really seeing the fabulous life lesson to a child of being socially rejected by his/her peers. I'd rather help a child find a developmentally-appropriate peer group, which may well not be the same age group, and build their social confidence from within that group.

As a university lecturer, I estimate it takes a good 9 months for most of my first years to recover from the social damage of school. For the ones who were queen bees at school, it takes considerably longer for them to transcend those really rather odd institutional social norms.

Schools are an artificial environment and they don't mirror the real world. They are also controlled greatly by teachers and other systems in place, so that they can run efficiently, i.e deal with classroom management. I agree with kitson that poor social experiences in school only teach a child low self-esteem, and that this doesn't help them deal with it any better in later life. Disappointment is part of life, and surely this can be experienced both at home or at school? And HE kids also learn skills such as empathy, interaction, leadership skills etc in their communities out and about, through HE groups and activities, and with schooled friends.

How does being ostracised at school teach a child anything useful? So many adults have hang-ups because of poor social experiences and bullying at school, and this continues into their adult lives, at work or within their families. Feeling sad and miserable as a child is not a pre-requisite to becoming a confident and sociable adult.

bugster in that case the esteem which is necessary for socialising comes from the parents not from the school at all.

I am being a bit of devil's advocate here, because despite his difficulties, ds1 (who has no medical or SN diagnosis) enjoys school and gets on with it. We don't have any plans to home ed him, unless he actively requested it. And I don't think he will. But Ds2 is a different kettle of fish, and I am constantly struck by all the things I will have to organise in order for him to "survive" secondary school, when I would be able to provide most of those things for him at home, AND socialise him in a more forgiving environment.

I just feel somehow that we are being peddled this myth about school teaching children social skills which is not borne out in practice, for all children. Rather in the same way that people used to subscribe to the myth that sending children to boarding school taught them to be independent. Yes, some children adapted easily because they already had the skills and resilience to be independent, and boarding school reinforced this. But some children went to the wall. Even the ones that did adapt, lost something along the way.

"Socialisation" isn't really about being happy or making friends. It's about being in situations where you have to deal with other people, work in groups, cope with a variety of people who you may or may not feel you have anything in common with. And the school environment, to a large extent, makes that necessary. So most children who have gone through school will have developed ways of being ok in company they might not have chosen.

It's not the only place they'll learn that, and for a lot of children it's certainly not the kindest way to learn it, but they will (mostly) learn it there sooner or later.

Pretty much everyone who decides to HE will make sure they look for other ways of encouraging their DC to develop similar skills, so it's not something that schools do and HE miss out on. The only difference is that in school you're forced into those situations without having to go looking for them, but there could be a risk with HE, with an overprotective parent, where opportunities were limited. But, in real life, I don't think HEing parents are that inclined to wrap their children in cotton wool to avoid even the minor social bumps of life!

I don't think that anyone argues that being regularly ostracised and left out of the groups at school is a valuable learning experience, do they? A decent caring school tries to deal with those situations.

Ommmward, I would say it took at least a year from my dd to recover emotionally and socially from her experiences in the school system. Academically she regained ground and then absolutely started to flourish, within a few months. Being ostracised and having people point out her physical supposed shortcomings didn't teach her anything worthwhile at all. What does spending playtimes hiding in the toilets teach a child? Believe me, it certainly doesn't make them more independent or self reliant. All it does it make them more unsure of themselves.

Actually, thank you Bugster, you reminded me why Im homeschooling and I am feeling a lot more positive. I had actually not thought about how bad school actually was for the family, for quite some time!

Ds has never been near a formal classroom. He is a well adjusted, happy, team-sport playing little lad. He is not being held back, and at 5.5 years, he is reading chapter books, doing Latin prep, and is very confident indeed.

Dd has found her niche and does not spend evenings crying to me asking why she isn't liked and included. Instead we spend evenings making solar powered robots, or working models of Roman aquaducts and the like. She is included in the group activities she does do, and no longer suffers from any social anxiety, which was triggered by school.

The thing is schools, good or not, cannot make children accept a child they have rejected, and force them to include that child. They can stop the worst of the physical bullying, but that is all they can do, and sometimes they do not even do that very effectively. Bugster was indeed arguing that withstanding being ostracised was character forming. It is not the minor bumps in life I wanted to protect dd from, but rather the day in day out drag of having to spend most of her time in a place she was not welcome with people who made it abundantly clear they did not like her or want to include her.

I loved primary school. But I do not remember having a single close friend. I spent my time in playground mostly alone, longing for it to rain so we could go in and do something like colouring! I was extremely shy.
I don't think I was any more sociable at the end of 6 years at primary than I was at the beginning...But I had learnt lots of other stuff, ideas etc, teachers were lovely to me etc etc. I was v academic.
So the value of school wasn't really in "socialising" me.

From the very brief description of your eldest is it possible he is also on the spectrum? High functioning/mild Aspergers? Just wondering as you mention misunderstanding and the fact your other DS has ASD. (I admit to being heavily biased so it is probably wildly wrong)

Regarding your question though I don't know really, I was miserable on the social side but loved the academic as I was very geeky. I have Aspergers but didn't know that until recently (hence the bias) so obviously had no support there. I just remember wondering why on earth I would be friends with these random people I'd been stuck in a class with. I did make friends but I certainly didn't find it as easy as most seemed to.

Had I been homeschooled and been able to follow my own interests it may have been better (not that my parents gave a toss were the right type to do that, but in theory I think HE would've been better for me) - meeting others at societies etc. I have also always got on better with people older than me (even now at work, I'm 25) and I also used to enjoy mentoring/teaching younger children but found it impossible to get on with most people my own age - all we had in common was year of birth!

DD on the other hand is amazingly sociable and popular (I frequently ask myself how the heck that happened when she has two outcasts for parents!) so for her school is amazing and provides far more than we ever could (sad in a way as we were really considering HE). DS I'm not sure about as he is barely talking - at 2.10 there are vague concerns he may also have ASD - so we will see what happens when he goes to nursery next term. I am concerned for him though (I never was with DD)

A lot must also depend on the school itself though; DD's is nurturing and fantastic but the local junior is getting a bad reputation for bullying.

(massive x post - mum phoned halfway through!)

WRT your eldest, I was probably very abrupt suggesting Aspergers or similar, and if he is by and large happy then maybe it's not an issue anyway.

We are considering moving for junior because of the aforementioned bullying - I absolutely do not want my DCs going somewhere that allows children to be bullied. It's not just concern that my DCs may be the victims (though at that school it is a valid concern as we are at the poorer end of the families around here and they are the ones who suffer at that school). It is also the fact that I don't want them to end up being bullies. Of course we do as much as we can to help them become nice good people but I hate the thought of the school condoning nastiness. So we will probably move but would consider HE.

The only 2 geographic locations where one might be expected to find 30 people of the same age being supervised by a stranger in an authoritarian role would be schools and nursing homes.

Socialization is a term used to refer to the process of inheriting norms, customs and ideologies.

Socializing taking part in social activities; interacting with others

Neither requires a school.

Of course I am being provocative but it is a fact. There is no one-size fits all solution for education. Home-ed is not for everyone and I would never try to suggest that it is but by the same token neither is institutionalised education.

Ok everyone you have made some big assumptions about me which I'd like to put straight.

kitson no I am not arguing that withstanding being ostracised is character forming, please don't put words in my mouth. I was talking about one incident of not being invited to a party. Ostracisation is something that takes place over a much longer period and involves a pattern of incidents, and I agree that a school / parents etc need to take action to remedy such a situation. I would not want anyone's child to be unhappy. Sadness from one situation though does not = deeply unhappy child/ostracisation, but if patents get into a panic about an incident like that, they will reinforce a child's negative feelings, instead of empowering the child to deal with these experiences, and learn to be happy, confident and socially well adjusted.

Fuzzpig possibly he is, dyspraxia is being investigated. But as I say, he gets by, because he likes all the other stuff about school, fun lessons, fun activities, nice upbeat teachers. I do value what school provides for him, I just dispute that he has become "sociable" because of being in school for 6 years. He has probably learnt some basic skills about listening, staying quiet in class, obeying rules. He has not learnt how to "play" despite all that playground training, and prefers to spend time in school library which is a safe environment, rather than hang out in playground. He is not being bullied; it is more that he just finds it difficult to interact in group situations. So why has 6 years of school not managed to teach him this - and if they flagged it up to me, why did nothing change in the way he interacted - short on resources, short on adult intervention - short on 1-1 socialising?

Is it my fault for giving him low self esteem , or it just an example of how school doesn't actually do what it says on the tin?

I'm not upset, just mulling it all over in my mind atm - this is more of a theoretical discussion.

In my experience the main social lessons my children have learned is how to deal with children who are different to what they are used to- especially disruptive children.

In an ideal world my children could just learn with similar children but that would delay the shock that there are different kinds of people in the world until a later date- secondary/university/work.

My children have picked up the basics at home but some children aren't made to share/cooperate... With other children and adults out of school and have to learn basics like talking to people nicely and treating other peopke's belongings with respect.

ASD or anything like that is a complete game changer though...for most children school hones innate social skills and teaches them how to work better with others, it doesn't create what isn't there in the first place.

Good schools can improve things for children with ASD, but a lot assume that they'll pick up social skills and learn how to manage friendships just by being with other children, which is of course not how it works at all for children with ASD.

bugster I do think a lot about making ds resilient. Yesterday for example, I restrained from saying things like Danny's not your best friend that's why he didn't invite you, I just said, It is difficult when you are not invited, that must have made you feel bad...describing rather than advising etc etc..

We are working a lot with empowerment rather than feeling like it is someone else's fault that things happen. But As I KEEP SAYING, IT IS US DOING THIS STUFF NOT SCHOOL. Ds goes to Nurture group once a week, which he loves, because it is a small group, and he is getting special attention. But all that proves is that school helps children best when they get 1:1 attention, such as would be provided by HE.

I wonder sometimes if people don't expect too much for their children and think that success is being hugely popular, the sort that everyone wants to be friends with and that they should be in a social whirl of parties etc.
I think that you need to start in a small way. I had one best friend when I started infant school-we met on the first day. I then moved and I was the one on my own in the playground and it isn't nice. Luckily we moved again and I built up a small group of friends. I hated parties and I only came to enjoy them if I was a great friend of the birthday child.
It isn't something that you can force. You just help the child get over disappointments and gently encourage. I was perfectly happy on my own with a book.
There is quite an art to friendship and you have to learn to give and take. You can often see an adored DC come into school and they are very used to getting their own way, they have got used to wangling it with their parents. Suddenly they come up against other children and they are not going to let them have their own way. It is a difficult balance, they need to be helped, but they also need to be left alone to work things out for themselves and settle differences for themselves. Obviously I am not talking about bullying but they have to get used to the fact that people can fall out, have arguments and resolve them.
Good schools do help on the socialization with playground friends, working in groups etc.
You can over protect which isn't in the child's long term interests. People post on here who have no proper friends. It is largely to do with personality and some people are loners by nature. Friendship is a learning curve-some people never get there or some people come to it late.
Some children are just naturally sociable and will be the centre of things and some will need a bit of support. Unfortunately you can't do it for them.
I have never liked being the 'in crowd' and I don't now-the outsiders are far more interesting.
You have to have a very fine balance between helping those who need it and not being over protective-it isn't easy.

Fuzzpig I have a very sociable daughter, who likes school, and can't wait to get ready and out of the house every morning (it wasn't always like that though) Ironically, she likes the social stuff and dislikes the work (soo boring Mummy)

P.S. I bet you are not really an outcast. Sometimes we keep the same childhood picture of ourself, when in fact things have changed a lot, and we've grown into the person we were meant to be all along. HTH.

Interesting thread.
My DS has definitely learned a lot of social lessons at school. He's a loner by nature, and would happily play on his own all day, but he has learned the pleasure of social interaction by being in a classroom environment. There is, of course, another side to it- Occasionally he has been upset that a certain friend doesn't want to play with him or that some girl said he was a baby, but, as horrible as it is, those were lessons too- If that happens now, he knows enough about how the society within the school to know that it's swings and roundabouts.

I considered HE when he was younger, but because I am socially awkward, I didn't think it would be fair on him. He most certainly wouldn't learn anything about how to be with others from me!

I think school is very bad at this. The things mentioned by bugster:

learning to interact with people, learn empathy, negotiation, cooperation, listen to others, be assertive, sometimes take a leadership role, many other things.

These are all things that are not learnt at school, within a very artificial environment which focuses the child's attention on the crude hierarchical dynamics of pack behaviour, rather than allowing the child space and freedom to see other people as people, and work out how to enjoy their company and contribute something in return to others' enjoyment of life.

One of the things that staggers me, still, at the age of 40, about the "real" world, is how invariably you get a good response when you make a confident, well meaning approach to someone whom you don't know. Nearly always people will be nice back: whether or not they welcome you deeply into their lives (and they might) they will respond to pleasantness with pleasantness. This is absolutely the opposite of everything I learnt about how people behave at school and is one of the most important things to know about people.

That is only one example of the way in which school "socialisation" is in fact a very poor, damaging preparation for social behaviour in real life. They key point is that at school, socially, often doing nothing, or as little as possible, is the only sane way to minimise pain. In the real world, the more you do, the more you put yourself out there, in a good spirit, the better. Learning this, after school, takes a lot of time.