Is it a myth that School "socializes"?

[swanthingafteranother]

I have three dcs who have been through primary. Two have failed to make any close friends, although they have acquaintance/friends. One (dd, 10) has three close friends. They all seem to quite enjoy school because it gives them a framework in which to see people. However, I would not say that school has given them "socialising skills" as such. These were innate. My eldest has gone to secondary and now has behaviour problems due to misunderstanding other people, talking AT them etc. He still likes school though, but the "friends" have not materialised. He was just crying last night because an old acquaintance hadn't invited him to his party.

I suppose I am just feeling that school offers all sorts of things, but to claim it makes children better at getting on with people is wrong.

Ds2 has ASD recently diagnosed. He likes school - he likes being busy, and he likes structure/teachers. But his academic work is suffering through lack of close supervision.
So far no-one has ever invited him round for a playdate (he is 10), and he only gets invited to one or two parties a year. So from a socialization point of view school has achieved very little.

So why do people bang on about how school teaches you to make friends. I wonder if it doesn't create this artificial environment where children make friends despite being in a classroom.

Exactly morethanpotatoprints. They also have the common factor of all being born in the same year.

but morethanpotatoprints I think your missing my point, its not just about who they choose to play with and be friends with, its also about the ones they don't like/choose as friends, that's just as important!
You're not that likely to arange meet ups with the kids your kid doesn't like, but at school they have to co-exist with them!

They can also make friends with those in different school years too.

I mean its easy to work with people you like, harder to work with the ones you'ld never choose to socialise with

exotic more likely in secondary, less so in primary. They also spend the best part of a day with a class of between 25-30 kids from the same year they were born, and for most of the day they're sat taking directions from a teacher. From these 30 they maybe hang out with 2 or 3? My point is that it can be equally restrictive in school as it can in HE depending on the circumstances.

Question? Did you send your child to school for an education or for socialisation?

What people mean by socialised these days its to be invited to all the parties, sleepovers etc. Have lots of friends.

I don't see it that way, I see socialisation as being able to communicate effectivly with society, that includes all age ranges. I see it as being able to know appropriate behaviour in certain social situations.

For my part I don't understand what a bunch of five year olds can teach other five year olds.

As for homeschooling, quality trumps quantity everytime.

Numbertaker, I have been saying the same thing for ages on these threads, but not as eloquently as you. There is a huge difference. I know when I am talking to people about our plan to HE they are going to imply that dd will miss out on socialisation, it happens everytime and is beginning to infuriate me arghhh!

I don't think school is the only place where children learn to communicate with each other, negotiate, mix with same age and other ages, work together to achieve a given outcome, get on with people they don't like or have little in common with. My dd gets these things and any other you could mention from many groups she is involved with. Only one group she attends has one girl from her class at school and she is leaving soon.
I also disagree that it is important to learn how to get on with people you don't like. The cause of many a nervous breakdown in the work place. I'd rather not think that I or any member of my family would ever have to do this.

I found it the other way around, dudilicious, I had a good friend 2 years younger in the primary school and I also used to organise all the little ones. We also had games like tig where everyone joined in. Secondary school was where I stuck to the year group.
I really don't see much difference, numbertaker, in where you are educated - whether home or school. I can't say that you choose your system from any one reason. I certainly learned a lot from other 5 year olds when I was 5yrs and it was great to have a large pool of possible friends.

While I think that you can learn to socialise without school I do think it is important to get on with all sorts - you can't guarantee that you will get on with everyone in the world of work as an adult so you are less likely to have a nervous breakdown if you have managed to deal with it earlier.

@morethan. If you are going to HE and you are getting the old 'socialisation chestnut' then you can spend hours worrying about how you are going to answer people.

You will never please the people. You are in effect rejecting the social norm of going to school, therefore you are saying 'its not good enough for my child'. People feel that if you reject school, then you are in effect bringing in to question all thier own beliefs and actions about school, or how they chose to educate thier children, when infact you are not, you are just choosing your own way.

As home-educators most of us are pioneers, trail-blazers, mostly no one in our family or circle of friends has ever done it before, so we need to expect reactions, stuff being said.

When I pulled my son out, my family swore at me down the phone, I was given the look. With HE the proof of the pudding is in the eating, now after many years of HE I find out about secret bragging, etc.

You also will never replicate school, for the education, social or otherwise, but for most people that pull thier children out of school it was actually the social side that was the problem anyway.

Grit your teeth, hold your vision, smile and wave.

The big mistake is to explain and justify - smile, nod, say it suits you and change the subject. The best response to anything to do with bringing up children. You won't get people agreeing so it is best not to give them a way in.

Thank you both. My arghhh was more the confusion a lot of people have between social life and socialisation. It is interesting to hear about negative responses from family as we have not really experienced that yet. We only have dh Dad and family to tell yet, I'm expecting fire works. I don't care as he's always seen me as a bad influence. Thats rich coming from the father of my dh a jazz musician, lol. My mil said its the best idea i've ever come up with as she knows how dedicated dd is to her music. I know its a weird reason to leave school but hey ho. There are of course a million and one other reasons but thats the easiest to explain.

I don't worry about socialisation as I find school socialisation abnormal. However I do worry about loneliness with HE. That said, my son is currently lonely in school anyway.

Colleger, where have you been? In case you hadn't realised the post above is the first time I have mentioned HE as a definate. Looks like its official now. How much notice do I give if completing school year. They finish in 3 weeks and dd would like to say goodbye properly but not have too long for kids to start bugging with lots of questions.

I think that socialisation in HE is just a 'red herring'-it just means that you have to put more effort into it-nothing more than that.
You also have to bear in mind that you get exactly the same cross section of personalities that you will get in school-the only difference is that you don't have to see them every day if you don't want to. (whether that is good or bad depends on your viewpoint).

No notice required, you can sent a de-reg letter and pull him out tomorrow. But you may as well finish the term, but you will have to tell the school first if you child wants to say goodbye, but if you give them too much notice you may find they will try hard to stop you, or speak to your child. If I were you I would send the letter at the end of term, and give him a day or so to say goodbye.

Thanks numbertaker.
I don't know why tonight has been the turning point and can't think what has been said to enable me to decide. I just hope I can do a good job with dd now.

JMO, but I don't see any reason at all that the positive elements of school socialisation can't be learned/developed elsewhere.

Personally, the social lessons I learned from school were that I was "weird" and that I should hide any part of me which is actually "me", oh, and never express any opinions ever, in order not to be thought of as "weird", and that being non-weird is the most important thing in the universe and that nobody will ever find you interesting enough to want to be your friend if you are weird.

(Later discovered that being unique and/or having opinions is a good thing and is, in fact, what makes people interesting. However, I still struggle to accept it when it applies to myself or have the confidence to let it show.)

Also, that white, male, straight boys are the top of the pack and everyone exists in some kind of hierarchy below them. Which included a load of sexist, homophobic and racist beliefs (whatever the school policies are) which I again un-learned later on by experience or logic.

That it mattered if you weren't invited to all the big things, like sleepovers etc, because you were definitely missing out and it definitely wasn't better to have a smaller group of close friends who you actually are close to.

And the one about getting on with people you don't like? Oh yeah, I learned to pretend I was getting on with them so that the people who could have actually helped thought I was fine, while they made my life hell and made me out to be the unreasonable one.

Yeah, school is great

I find it strange that people assume socialisation = children the same age.

Socialisation can come in many different ways, and being in the company of lots of different people, of different ages/backgrounds etc.

How you choose to socialise your HE children is entirely up to you. They can join various clubs, meet with Grandparents etc. Some people would even say that a trip to the supermarket is socialising because they are conversing with other people.

How often you socialise is irrelevant too. It's what suits you as a HE-ing family/group.

Don't get caught up in what's considered 'suitable' by people who don't HE !
When we started we had so many comments from friends and family about how much interaction with other people (they meant same age children) our DCs would have. I just replied "as much or as little as they want".

CONGRATULATIONS MORETHANPOTATOPRINTS

You are very brave, especially as HE is not essential for your daughter iykwim. My suggestion is to forget school, don't look back, don't look forward and don't compare what your child should be doing to the national curriculum. Take it easy on yourself and don't put pressure on yourself.

Note to self: act on own advice!

I think that soicalisation is important. Some schools are very good at helping children develop social skills and other schools are neglectful to the point of abuse.

If a child is constantly being socially ostracised then its horrific and will do long term damage to the child's mental health. I think that school is sometimes too extreme an enviroment for billy no mates to learn social skills. Billy no mates is caught in a vicous circle, that no one will play with him and he never gets the chance to learn social skills. Its hopeless.

A child with ASD can learn social norms, but needs to be taught what is obvious to most people. I think that secondary school can make many people on the spectrum very distressed. Socialisation is important but it needs to be at the pace the child can cope with.

Thank you colleger, now all I have to do is not talk myself out of it, lol.
I don't think school helped with their attitude to a vocal workshop (run by the LEA) coinciding with sports day. It was the lack of acknowledgement that dd had had to decide what she wanted to do. She talked it over with me for ages. Her first reaction was singing but then she thought about school, it was a big decision for an 8 year old. her teacher even said she would have to sit out when they practised running, honestly.

It seems very rigid! I can't see why she still can't practise running.

I think that a lot depends on personality- I genuinely much preferred the small group of real friends and had no interest in being those who thought they were 'top of the pack' - they are only that if people see them as it. I wouldn't have wanted to go to their sleepovers etc. I suppose it is damaging if you want to but I can't see why you would. Part of the socialisation is working out your own friends on your scale and not getting caught up with someone else's scale of desirability.
It was a useful thing to learn in childhood, be true to yourself, make the friends that you want and don't be influenced by popularity and having to go with the crowd.

I think HE socialisation develops the skills commonly argued as a pro for school more than school. Obviously there are not as many peers to chose from so a home ed child has to learn to tolerate, rub along, work with children that they may have avoided at school. They are therefore more tolerant, more understanding, more patient and the kid that is a pain in the ass will learn to grow out of negative behaviour quicker because of the peers who are not immediately ostracising and picking on him and making him feel worthless as would happen at school.