Is it a myth that School "socializes"?

[swanthingafteranother]

I have three dcs who have been through primary. Two have failed to make any close friends, although they have acquaintance/friends. One (dd, 10) has three close friends. They all seem to quite enjoy school because it gives them a framework in which to see people. However, I would not say that school has given them "socialising skills" as such. These were innate. My eldest has gone to secondary and now has behaviour problems due to misunderstanding other people, talking AT them etc. He still likes school though, but the "friends" have not materialised. He was just crying last night because an old acquaintance hadn't invited him to his party.

I suppose I am just feeling that school offers all sorts of things, but to claim it makes children better at getting on with people is wrong.

Ds2 has ASD recently diagnosed. He likes school - he likes being busy, and he likes structure/teachers. But his academic work is suffering through lack of close supervision.
So far no-one has ever invited him round for a playdate (he is 10), and he only gets invited to one or two parties a year. So from a socialization point of view school has achieved very little.

So why do people bang on about how school teaches you to make friends. I wonder if it doesn't create this artificial environment where children make friends despite being in a classroom.

Vezzie what you say almost makes me in tears. There is a lovely TA at school who has been there for 15 years, a trained nursery nurse, working with the younger forms. And she once said to me (I was working as a volunteer so she was chatting; a very chatty lady) I ALWAY TREAT THE CHILDREN AS I THINK PARENTS WOULD WANT ME TO TREAT THEIR CHILDREN. So no professional "speak", not mention of outcomes, of learning even, just a sort of natural respectfulness to the children, which pays off in terms of their cooperation and engagement. Sometimes I hear the teachers shouting at a class to behave, and wonder where all that went...

My primary school did teach me to treat people pleasantly and I suppose my secondary too. I was lucky then.

exoticfruits I agree with you that it is about gently helping children to get through difficult incidents and not overprotecting them. And good schools do help, (although I've been in "good" schools which have let incidents escalate and I've heard comments about some kids bringing bullying etc on themselves, and the kid has been left to deal with the situation).

FfoFfy My DH is convinced that some of the parents in some HE groups are HE-ingbecause of their own social hang-ups. And yes, I think you do have to make more effort to find friends and social situations in HE, especially when you're first starting out and establishing contact.

I was a very shy DC and I didn't want people trying to force me to take on things that I wasn't ready for and neither did I want to be overprotected because I was shy! Parenting isn't easy!
School allowed me to take things at my own pace. I did have a 6 month spell alone in the playground ,but I observed a lot (there wasn't much else to do!) and it all came in useful at the next school. People (and children are no different) learn through their own mistakes and it is no good telling them.
The lines are very fine-everyone needs to be able to rub along-learn that people do fall out, have arguments, resolve them-that they don't like bossiness, they don't like being forced into an exclusive friendship etc and some of the lessons are hard- at the same time you don't want bullying. You don't learn anything if everything in the garden is roses all the time-if you haven't dealt with minor setbacks like your best friend not wanting to play with you, it will be doubly hard when a boyfriend dumps you, you don't get the promotion you want etc etc.
If you always have your mother to smooth the problems then you won't learn yourself. If your DCs are HEed then you do need to stand back and let them take the rough with the smooth-you have to do the same at school and just step in if it becomes more than that i.e. bullying.

I think it depends on how you define socialize.
To me socialisation (socialization) is something that was greatly taught in the home until PHSE and Citizenship became part of the nc. I believe this was a result of an increase in 2 parents working. (sorry its the sociology teacher coming out). Morals, social norms, faith, diversity, are all things we teach our children anyway.
However, mixing with children, playing, learning together in my opinion are different and not necessarily socialisation.

vezzie i'm not sure I agree with you about children reacting in the opposite way to adults, when approached by someone confident and friendly. Perhaps some children don't, but I have seen many children who do respond positively to this.

The things I mentioned are learned in my DD's school in Switzerland, and they are assessed on them, they form an integral part of their twice yearly report, under the heading 'social competence'. For the school leavers this is an important part of their reference when they apply for jobs.

I realise things are different in Britain, but isn't there something like 'personal and social development' at school?

If a child is HE I think it would require a considerable effort to ensure a child acquired that social competence. That's not to say it isn't possible.

I accept the situation is totally different for some SEN children.

In fact thinking about it-it was on the news recently that school policy on making everyone equally friendly with all and discouraging 'best' friends was damaging DCs.

I can well believe it exotic, would be interested to read that. Do schools really forbid best friends? What a load of rubbish. I know of a private school here that has a policy thatbif one child from a class is invited to a party, every child in the class has to be. Whichnmakes for parties of 20 5 year olds, total chaos, and makes friendship completely meaningless.

bugster, I don't think children are different innately in their responses, I think that schools are set up in a horrible way that promotes defensive and negative social behaviour. Learning to navigate school social life is often a matter of learning to minimise pain. this is a terrible grounding for what social intercourse can and should be in different environments.

morethan Not sure I agree with you there about socialisation. I think socialisation is playing with other children as well as learning to get along with them, and interacting in the community and all the other skills you listed like morals etc.

Kids do learn this from other kids as well as each other. I think that although you might see more people in school (depending on what you do as an HE family), the ratio of adults:children is better in HE. Yes we do need to step back and let our kids learn from situations, how to deal with them etc. But kids still need input from adults to learn how to deal with some of these situations appropriately before they escalate. From my experience this does not always happen in schools.

Our schools solution to socialization is to mix up the year groups (twice) so that just as the children settle into infants they are suddenly stuck in a new class and the same in juniors. Both my dds lost their best friends on each mix up and it really did scar their socializing abilities.

Its not just about making friends, its also about getting on in a situation with people you DON'T like as that's what its like out there in the working world

"I found that once we left school, the children, especially my dd were much much happier, and finding a lot more like minded friends. "
well, yeah that IMO would be the PROBLEM if I HSed, DCs would only mix with like minded people - people like us! children whose parent's I have something in common with.
The big advantage for me with school was I got to mix with kids who came from homes that my parents wouldn't mix with

We mix with families who HE that I would never mix with normally, but our kids are friends or they go to the same groups and activities. Likewise with after-school activities etc. I know mums who arrange playdates at the school gates with people they meet and get on with too. And yes, you do need to get on with people you don't like, but that doesn't just happen at school!

I think that say with after school activities and clubs etc it is still a limited sub-set of society, I went to school with kids that did no extra curricular activities at all!
In school you mix with people completely independantly of your parents. So HS groups and hobbies are still people you have something in common with, at school you mix with people you have nothing in common with so it's different, I don't think it can be replicated by parent arranged activities!

You can never make assumptions about all schools. All the ones that I know keep the DCs together as they move up - because of the friendships.
You arrange play dates with people that you know to start with but very soon it doesn't work -DCs make their own friends. The huge advantage is that it is DCs and parents that I would never come into contact with myself.

Some schools are trying to say that you must play with everyone equally, bugster. However DCs are like e ery one else, you want to choose your own friends - some you like and some you don't.

I remember at school how groups formed based on people's interests and ultimately their social class. The "trendier" girls would never mix with the poorer kids - this was at secondary school. Primary would be a little different, but I remember friendships dissipating in secondary school if kids felt they had little in common, including where they came from. I disagree that HE parents can't replicate this. Studies show that HE-ers are generally of average income (so there will be people on lower incomes as well as higher incomes), as well as encompassing all walks of life. It's a fallacy that it's just a middle-class pursuit. HE families we have met so far include people of different cultures, religions and definitely of differing incomes. In fact our dcs would never have met some of these groups of people, because our local school is very white and middle class! I agree with you about the after school activities, but again, school kids will generally go to these with people from their own social sector.

You choose like minded friends from a similar background - it is who you are comfortable with. I went to secondary modern school, my best friends, still friends today, were middle class with university educated parents. My DSs have always made friends with DCs from similar backgrounds - they have had a free choice.

Yes, exotic schools will keep you together in primary as classes which generally move up together, and in secondary you can choose a friend to be placed with in year 7. And yes, dcs make their own friends at school despite parents/teachers' interventions (e.g favourite in primary school is seating them boy/girl or in alphabetical order). But kids also choose their own friends in HE. I do not choose which friends my kids hang out with. There can be more limited numbers depending on how much is going on in your area, or on the families themselves, but as a teacher, I would also argue that school kids choose a few close friends - one or two generally at primary, maybe slightly bigger groups at secondary. They do not generally interact with everyone in their class/school.

I keep x-posting as on my crappy phone! My point exactly - whether you are educated at school or home, you will choose friends who are similar to you, no matter how many people are there. School
kids will still stay away from people they have nothing in common with. Therefore, socialisation can occur just as well in HE and socialisation can definitely be replicated by HE parents.

Exactly dudelicious- that is why I am against whole class parties. Even as an adult I have a few close friends and lots of acquaintances. DCs need to be free - at school or in HE to make their own friends.

Cross posted with you. I agree.

BUT! it's not just about friendship, socialisation isn't just about who you are friends with, you may not be friends with everyone in your class but you have to learn in the same environment as them which is a bigger lesson IMO, working alongside people you DON'T like and aren't friends without getting wound up by them is as important as making friends with people you DO like

monkeymom that happens in HE too though. Bullying and having annoying people around is not something which just happens at school.

exotic agree with you about the whole-class party thing and I also heard some schools have policies to discourage best friends. Ridiculous

Monkeymom.

I think children in school have lots in common, the most obvious being same class, school,. Also there are many parents who let dcs know they have a preference for whom they can play with. "Don't play with her, shes rough" or "why don't you invite x round she comes from a nice family". This is parent led

I don't think they get away with that sort of behaviour after year 1 morethanpotatoprints. The best part of school is that you see them everyday and you can have friends that your mother doesn't like! My best friend had a similar background to me but my mother wasn't at all keen on her.
I also agree with you monkeymoma- especially as it is a skill you need for adult life.