Are there any benefits of Primary school that HE can't usually provide?

[carolinecordery]

Hello all, I haven't registered my DD for Reception, which she would be eligible to start in September.
I was just wondering if you thought there were any benefits of primary school that HE can't provide. What things are good about primary school that are only available through attending?
I'm planning to HE and am convinced of the benefits of doing so, but want a rounded picture. It's easy to think of loads of things that would be, relatively, a bit crap about primary school, but is there ANY really good reason to go? DD's non-resident dad would rather she went.
Thanks, Caroline

In terms of the closeness of the friendships, yard, I think it does make a difference if they are the same kids or not, yes.

My own dd has multiple groups of friends from different activities - some of them are quite involved, with weekends away etc, and she has made some good friendships through these. But none of those friendships really compare with the relationships that she has with her school friends, and I think this is s function of the amount of time they spend together. She argues more with her school friends for sure, but learning about conflict resolution is also an important life skill.

"Plus do you pay for the HE groups and activities that have been mentioned?"

Yes we have to pay for some things-but we have become very resourceful as a community, to use free amenities, or negotiate educational rates, so we get things very cheaply indeed!
I'm always gobsmacked when people tell me the cost of bowling or ice skating for instance, outside of school days. We often get these things at about a quarter of the normal price-and of course when we use them, there are no crowds!

and then we don't have to pay for school uniforms, or trendy clothes (the need for 'labels' seems to disappear, when teens leave school to HE) or any of the multiple costs associated with school-of which there seems to be lots of threads on mumsnet. But I guess it's swings and roundabouts there.

"seems to me that it's really only a choice for well-off families"
I know literally hundreds of HE families now, from all over the country. I know two HE families that I would consider to be well off. The overwhelming majority in my experience, HE on a very limited budget. A large number of us, are on a very low income indeed.

Most of us don't use tutors either-simply can't afford them, even if we wanted to use them. We employed a music tutor in the last two years, as DD2 felt she needed to catch up with music theory quickly. To do that, we've had to give up something else.

There are HE camps throughout the summer, all of which are none profit making, and for many of us that is our only holidays.

The biggest costs for us, was transport to get to places. I also gave up on a career to do this, and now work part time at a much lower paid job.
I drive an old car now, we rarely bought any new resources, instead making use of FreeCycle, Ebay, Amazon second hand, charity shops and car boots sales.

The financial hardships (which I guess many would consider a downside, but we've just got used to it and live quite frugally) are more than made up for though, by the startlingly good results. We have often asked the children, if they have any regrets, if they would like the lifestyle their cousins have for instance, with foreign holidays, newer car, financial support through Uni. They could have chosen differently too, I could have picked my career back up, earned very well and lived the materially richer lifestyle.
They have consistently chosen this autonomous HE life on a very limited budget, over that. From quite an early stage in our HER journey, it became their lifestyle choice too. Interestingly, given half a chance their cousins would have made the same choices..... But it wasn't my sister's choice of what is right for her family though, and I respect that.

I really haven't had any other 'cons' to HE. It's 'pros' all the way for us.

We've had a wonderful life with these three, far far better than the one we had before they came out of school, or the one we had with their brother when he went all the way through school.

We have no regrets at all.
None.

What do you consider a startlingly good result? Do the do a levels etc? Do you send them back into the system for university?

I have discovered that my children (some schooled) achieve better when they are happy and relaxed. One child wasn't doing well socially at school and it was impacting his academic work but in other activities where he had lots of friends he was thriving. I then sent him to an academic class with a group of friends he got on with and he thrived and his academic achievements rose substantially. So the question for us is what is school for. If its for academics and he's not thriving then why would I send him there? If its to cope with conflict but at the expense of his academic education then I'm sorry but my son is not a guinea pig and he deserves a decent education. Believe me, he has plenty opportunities for conflict!

His closest friends have never been his school mates. When he is happy and relaxed he is a better friend and makes friends more easily. When he is stressed with low self-esteem, caused by aspects of the school system, then the opposite is true. I could keep my son in school and he could muddle along and be the kid that some of the parent's kids on here bully, but why would I do that?

Why does a result have to be quantified in terms of levels? That question is exactly the reason I wish I'd home eded sooner and goes back to my point about us all blindly following the status quo.

I also wouldn't class uni or college as part of the 'system'. They are adult institutions and learning is independent. More home ed kids gain successful entry to uni than the rest of the population.

Do they do gcses and A levels? If not how do they get in to university

colleger, I'm all for questioning stuff and not just doing as we're told.:) And I do have respect for HE-ers, as they have clearly thought about it hard and they have taken on a huge responsibility. It just isn't what I'd choose for my dd.

As for mixing between age groups, I think it's a valid point - one of my favourite things about one of dd's extra-curricular activities is that it brings her into regular contact with kids aged between 4 and 17, and I do value this.

However, I have actually been surprised at the degree of mixing between age groups in my dd's school. It is very much promoted and encouraged, and though most of the actual teaching still takes place according to age groups, friendships do form. Far more so than when I was a kid at any rate.

I think it's nice to have a range of friendships certainly, whether these are built up at school or elsewhere.

"What do you consider a startlingly good result?"

Well what I had was three miserably unhappy children, who were floundering in the remedial groups because of their unmet SEN.

Now they are all in Higher Education, and doing very well indeed. But even more importantly, I have happy self confident young adults, doing what they love in life.

I flexi-school my DD (mornings at school, HE afternoons). Secondary school is a different story altogether but I don't think that there is anything at primary school that HE can't provide. However, the benefits of school for me are that I get a breather from her (she is very hard work), I don't have the pressure of keeping her up to date with maths which I would struggle with and that I don't feel a personal responsibility to be in charge of her socialising, as it's ready-made at school. None of these things need be a problem for you at all if you HE, it's just what suits me.

So the higher education system is ok, just not up until then? Did they sit exams to get in?

Out of interest, colleger, if you had felt that your dc were really, truly thriving at school - emotionally, socially academically - would you have considered the HE route? Because I simply can't imagine taking my own dd out of an environment which she loves, and where she is doing so well. However, I would certainly consider it if she was unhappy or failing to make progress etc.

"Do they do gcses and A levels?"

One of mine did GCSEs and an Access course, at an FE college and then went onto Uni.
One used her wide range of life experiences to get herself a job with a national organisation. Then she went on and did an FE college course, around work and then onto Uni.
One did an OU starter course, used that to get into FE college, where she did a level 3 Nat Btec, and then onto Higer Ed.

But some home educators GCSEs as distance learning courses, some look at the curriculum online, enter the exams as external candidates and do qualifications that way. Some use the OU like my daughter did, to gain entry to FE college, and others have done part or the whole of their degree through the OU.
What Universities need to see is the ability of the candidiate to study/produce results at the required level.
My experience is that most seem very interested in HE candidates.

I think one of my children is failing to reach their true potential. He will probably get A's and A* but it is still well below his potential. But he likes school and he will stay but I do see it as a childcare facility and he sees it as a social holiday! I'm also paying for it which annoys me but I wouldn't take him out now as it's gone past that point. If I'd home eded him earlier thenim sure he wouldn't have been interested in going to school.

Yes, I rather suspect that my dd sees school as a bit of a social holiday. But she is very extrovert, and I think I'd struggle to meet her need for social interaction if I HE'd her!

As for reaching potential, I know what you mean there too - dd is very bright, and isn't always pushed to the max in school, though she has had excellent 1:1 input in some areas of the curriculum, and this has certainly helped her to make genuine progress. But I'm not sure if it matters that much at this age if she reaches the limits of her potential - the way I see it, if she has an aptitude and interest in a particular area, there will be plenty of time to pursue this in more depth when she is older.

I may not be typical in this view, though, as I tend to value the social side of schooling more highly anyway - the school previously wanted to accelerate dd a year, but we declined as we didn't want to take her away from her friends. And though I don't HE, we do do lots at hone to provide the sort of challenge and stimulation that we think she needs, and so I think it balances out pretty well overall.

mrskbpw you wouldn't need separate childcare for your younger children (I don't know anyone who does). People just fit learning in around them, and include them as far as possible! Lots can be done during nap time or while they are drawing on the walls playing.

As far as costs go, at the moment all we have extra is £24 per term for swimming (per child), and £2 a week for Beavers during term time. Our church runs a free football coaching session at the local park on Saturday mornings. If we eat out it's normally lunch at Ikea once or twice a month, that's only a tenner! Costs will go up though when they choose an instrument to study, and we'll probably pay for some foreign language tutoring as well , but that's not for a while. Petrol and travel costs some, going to see friends and to museums, the forest etc. Oh, and books. We get lots free from the library, and downloads from sites like Project Gutenberg. I think I've spent maybe £20 or £30 on school books for the coming year, mostly second hand from amazon.

Sorry, that was long! Just thought you might be interested in an example.

if there is something lacking in he it can almost always be "fixed" people mention socialising so much but,firstly,i dont think that lumping 35 kids all born in the same year together can be called socialisation,secondly,if you want to,your kids can socialise with other kids every day,if you want them to,and if tthey want to.I believe HE provides a richer social experience,as they mix with people of different ages and backgrounds,rather than just other kids the same age as them that happen to live nearby.I really cant think of any pros to school!That is just my take on things though,i know some people dont see it that way.

also i think it can cost as much or as little as you like!We live in a great place where we are near the beach,countryside and town,parks,shops all within walking distance so we do lots of stuff for free,plus west sussex has a great HE community,we dont do clubs or anything so it costs us nothing,although my 4 do go through lots of clothes,and art materials!

Jinsei, my dd is happy in a good school, doing well, very sociable, above average according to the dumbed down standard accepted by most parents, teachers and Ofsted. Unfortunately my dds level of education is appauling, she will be better off out of the system.

But cuddler, surely most kids who go to school mix with other children as well? School is only a part of my dd's social experience, but I do consider it a very important part. And actually, I think there is quite a lot to be learned from being "lumped together" in a class of kids that you might not otherwise choose as friends - as dd has got to know her classmates over time, she has learned to be more tolerant of their differences, to recognise that all have strengths and weaknesses, and to find that she does have stuff in common with even the most unlikely characters. Had she not been forced to spend so much time with these kids, I'm not sure that she'd have learnt those lessons.

morethan, I'm genuinely curious to know what it is that you find so appalling about your dd's current education? I know that the "expected levels" aren't up to much, but loads of children are working way beyond these, and I feel that our school caters very well for this cohort. In fact, I am sometimes surprised at the extent to which they really don't put limits on their expectations of the children, and at the breadth and depth of the work that they have done - some of the topics have been really ambitious given the ages of the children!

As a result of this, I have never felt that there is a ceiling to what dd could achieve. Yes, I think she could certainly progress through the NC levels a bit faster if she was pushed harder, but I see no point in hothousing, and it's not my impression that that's what most HE-ers are about.

So I'm honestly curious - which aspects of your dd's education would you particularly want to improve by HEing, and how would you do things differently?

Jinsei, I would concentrate more on English. The schools I am familiar with don't teach spelling, handwriting is not covered extensively enough imo. Reading is hit and miss i.e not often enough.
Maths, the basics aren't covered enough and in Latter years they aren't taught how to manage money and finance.
I believe that just 1-2 hours daily with 1 to 1 support would greatly improve this.
Obviously I have other issues but apart from giving dd the chance to do Humanities when she wants to and practice her music for hours on end the rest concern bureaucracy and the fact I believe schools institutionalise our children. DD is very ambitious where music is concerned and has often joked with me that school gets in the way.

Sorry, I forgot to add. Her dad is Grammar school educated and would do most of this as he works mainly from home. I am dyslexic so could only do so much where English is concerned. I get by though and confident enough to facilitate primary.

In my case, had I wanted to do it, I can't see that it would have worked.
My DS1 was 8 when DS2 was born and 10 when DS3 was born. At that time, understandably, I was taken up with babies - breast feeding etc- and even getting out of the house was difficult. WhenI had got my act together and was out and about fairly easily I was doing a lot with toddlers. That gives the stark choice. - do you miss out on toddler groups, tumble tots, feeding the ducks, going to the recreation ground, going to NCT coffee mornings, getting together with friends- or do you drag DS one along, or do you leave a 12yr old alone for several hours at a time- or do you delegate DS1 to someone else for a lot of the time? If you want to take the 12 year old to something at his level do you have to have to have 2 small DC in tow with a limited attention span or do you leave them with someone, assuming you can find someone who wants them?

As it was I was happy that DS1 got the school bus, was out doing things at his level and was relaxed when he got home, we were in and he was happy to play with his brothers for a while and they were thrilled to see him. I was very aware that even holidays were difficult, we were back to the sort of holiday that he had grown out of. Therefore he came with us but he also had a 10day Scout camp, if we were lucky a school residential and DH looked after the little ones while I took him skiing.

When DS3 got to 5yrs DS was 15 years - is that fair on either?

My expertise are the arts subjects. DS1 was a scientist. He did a science subject at a RG university. Would he have known that he liked science at home with me? How would it work? It isn't something that I could just felicitate. I don't have the equipment. I would have to send him out to college- why is that different from school?
DS3 is the artist- I can't draw. He takes after my father and the talent passed me by. At school it was nurtured early on, in ways that I couldn't manage.
DS2 I could manage but he is dyslexic and I had enough problems with the things that I did at home trying to keep away from DS3, less than 2 years younger, who could butt in and do it with ease- very demoralising for DS2. The 2 younger ones are chalk and cheese, they are fine but if together for very long were hard work - they knew exactly which buttons to press to annoy the other.
They were out all day with a different set of friends and so they managed to play OK. Cooped up all day together they tended to be a nightmare.

Genuine question- does anyone think it in their best interests to HE in my case? Or do I send eldest to school and just do the younger ones, to have him say perhaps ' why were they a special case and allowed to stay at home' or them say ' it wasn't fair- why did he go to school and we couldn't.

What would you do?

Can we bear in mind that lots of people don't have neat little families with 2 parents and DCs 2 years apart?

The need for labels and trendy clothes is down to personality. My HE friend has 3 DSs and the eldest and youngest couldn't give a hoot. The middle one has always managed to know the trends, what is 'in' and be part of it- despite living in a place way off the beaten track. He is also the one who hated HE camps - mainly because of the food which was vegetarian- his brothers were fine with it.

More home ed kids gain successful entry to uni than the rest of the population.

But do they gain more places than schooled children who have parents with a similar level of interest and investment in their child's education? That's the question, because by definition, if you are going to give up your career to spend 10-15 years HE your child, you have a higher than average interest in their education.

BUT, the question is do HE parents do better than a school in providing that education, when you control for parental support/ interest.

Comparing the achievements of HE children to the general population is fairly meaningless because it ignores something that is generally accepted to be a critical success factor- parental attitudes