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Wolf Hall discussion continuation thread

751 replies

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 11/02/2015 13:10

Continuing the thread from Telly Addicts, just in time for episode 4

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/2288038-Damian-Lewis-fans-line-up-for-Wolf-Hall-tonight?msgid=52500336#52500336

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BOFster · 19/02/2015 13:37

The man on the steps talking to Cromwell about the King being his only friend was William Fitzwilliam, the Treasurer (I think?). He was gunning for the Boleyns at court, and becomes instrumental in Anne's downfall.

funnyossity · 19/02/2015 13:47

Thank you BOF!

MagratsHair · 19/02/2015 13:52

As an aside & to cement my reputation as clueless on this thread, why is the Tudor period so called? We have these eras: Elizabethan, Georgian, Arthurian, Edwardian, Victorian. Its just Tudor isn't it? Why not Henryian as Elizabeth was also Tudor. The Stuarts are the same with James. Although I suppose if you have 8 or so kings all with the same name you have to delineate their rule in different ways so I suppose Edwardian only recently belongs to the most recent Edward, not Longshanks say

And also, there was once a King Stephen (William the Conqueror's grandson) but despite Stephen still being a modern name, there has never been another king of that name & its not recognised as a royal name.

These things interest me and possibly only me :)

funnyossity · 19/02/2015 13:54

Only one John too. Bad reputations last!

nachohousekeeper · 19/02/2015 14:03

Last night I realised what it is about Mark Rylance that has drawn me in.

It is the way he speaks. Very level, quiet and unemotional. I can't really explain it properly but I just find the way he speaks spell binding! Also, not knowing a lot about the era or the whole history, I am still struggling with what kind of a man he is? Is he good, bad, manipulative? I think I know but it's all a bit mysterious!! I have a book about him all ready to read once this finishes.

I also noticed on the iPlayer there is a link to articles about how it was filmed and why they used certain design/camera angles. I will read it once it's finished so as not to spoil the magic!

FrankelandFilly · 19/02/2015 14:12

I expect for same reason there will never be another King Charles. Too many dodgy connotations with the previous two. Prince Charles has plenty of names to choose from but I suspect George VII is near the top Grin

BOFster · 19/02/2015 14:31

" I am still struggling with what kind of a man he is? Is he good, bad, manipulative?"

This is the core of history, isn't it? How can we ever tell? People are such complex entities.

Generally speaking, history has not been kind to Cromwell: the overarching view seems to cast him as the scheming toad portrayed by the Holbein painting. At least in part, this has its roots in the resentment of so many of the court at the time: mired in the ideology of a divinely-ordained hierarchy, there was an atmosphere of envy and mistrust amongst the nobles, who felt quite aggrieved at the elevation of a lowly blacksmith's son to such an exhalted position of power. Add to that the turmoil of the Reformation, and Cromwell's overseeing of the destruction of monastic life, plus the various executions and machinations of the State, and it's not hard to see how posterity records Cromwell as a controversial and sometimes hated figure.

Hilary Mantel has gone back to the source material and reimagined him in a more sympathetic light. She focuses on his proven loyalty to his masters, his extreme talent, his ability to divine what people want and 'make it so' in a court which required astonishing cunning and nimble diplomacy just to survive. We know from the records that he was generous to his friends, and kind to the poor, and there is evidence that he valued education for his daughters as much as his son.

I'm not sure it's ever possible to say what the "truth" is about a person, but I certainly think that it is more interesting to see that a historical figure may have more complex characteristics and motivations than they might have been credited with.

Clawdy · 19/02/2015 15:39

The glimpses of Cromwell's childhood are heartbreaking - that scene where he burned his hand...the potboy serving More...and that dreadful beating at the very start.

squoosh · 19/02/2015 15:44

At least in last night's episode there were two examples of flickers of affection from his father.

Howcanitbe · 19/02/2015 15:51

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nachohousekeeper · 19/02/2015 18:25

Thanks BOF - excellent explanation.

I am finding this whole thing fascinating. As stated up thread, I have never been that interested in this period of history but now I am totally hooked.

I guarantee I'll be dragging my lot round Historical Houses this spring/summer!

BOFster · 19/02/2015 18:53

Me too- Speke Hall, here I come Grin

I posted this podcast link on the earlier thread, which is well worth a listen for anyone who missed it: Tracy Borman on the life of Thomas Cromwell.

Redheartsandflowers · 19/02/2015 20:36

The scene that got me in the latest episode was the one with Jane Seymour in the corridor, after they both realise Henry is after her.

She is staring out of the window and he sort of waits there looking at her. I get the feeling that if she'd said 'Get me out of this, I don't want this' he would have tried to help her. But she turns her back on him and he looks so sad. Sad

BOFster · 19/02/2015 20:59

Who was responsible for the dog's untimely demise? My money is on Rotten Rocheford.

Howcanitbe · 19/02/2015 21:10

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FrankelandFilly · 19/02/2015 21:16

I don't think any of them thought execution was a possibility, divorce and loss of land/titles maybe, but not death.

I think the saying goes "History is written by the winners". To an extent we're all subject to historical "spin" - look at how so many people's image of Richard III is entwined with the Shakespeare interpretation - Tudor propaganda.

Fiderer · 19/02/2015 21:31

Yes Frankel and the Blessed More played his part in that as well, at least according to Josephine Tey. Who started my whole interest in RIII and now by extension, Henry.

BOFster · 19/02/2015 22:09

It is a bit baffling as to why Jane Rochford is portrayed as having it in for Anne, given the family connection.

Is anyone able to shed any light?

BOFster · 19/02/2015 22:20

Meanwhile, I'm led to believe that the BBC are in talks with Denis Waterman to play Mary in the sequel.

Wolf Hall discussion continuation thread
magimedi · 19/02/2015 22:23

Is it not because George Boleyn,( Anne's brother) her husband, was possibly gay & she was very frustrated & felt he paid more attention to Anne than her?

I think she was the person (or one of the people) who gave the 'evidence' that George & Anne had had an incestuous relationship.

Howcanitbe · 19/02/2015 22:30

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flippinada · 19/02/2015 22:38

Ah, I'd forgotten about the Mary Tudor/Dennis Waterman looky likey painting. It's funny but I do feel a but mean laughing at it because poor Mary didn't have a great life and died young.

It's difficult to say with Jane Rochford. Certainly her husband treated her horribly. Maybe she was jealous and sought her chance for revenge - maybe she was just an unpleasant person. Maybe she was an amoral chancer (plenty of those about) who saw an opportunity for herself. Who knows.

I think the mystery of the who pushed Purkoy remains unresolved in the book; but maybe the point is that Anne has plenty of enemies who could have done it and she realises this. I think it's a dramatic device which is used to illustrate how vulnerable she has become.

Of course it could have been Henry in one of tempers, couldn't it....?

flippinada · 19/02/2015 22:40

*a bit mean.

Howcanitbe · 19/02/2015 22:46

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BOFster · 19/02/2015 22:52

I saw that picture for the first time this evening- I'm not making fun of Mary, just struck by the likeness, honestly Blush.

And yes, I don't think any of the Tudors covered themselves in glory, execution-wise. It was an exceptionally gory period of history.