Wolf Hall discussion continuation thread

[AKnickerfulOfMenace]

Continuing the thread from Telly Addicts, just in time for episode 4

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/2288038-Damian-Lewis-fans-line-up-for-Wolf-Hall-tonight?msgid=52500336#52500336

Thank you Dopey!
I'm in the throes of novel research about Norfolk's daughter Mary and also wrote one set in the north during 1536-7 which is why I'm saturated in Henry VIII at the moment. There's so much stuff though, I've read about a tiny fraction of one percent of it....

Apologies if anyone has already read this article (or indeed if anyone has already linked to it!)

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11336207/Wolf-Hall-behind-the-scenes-of-the-BBCs-Hilary-Mantel-adaptation-with-Damian-Lewis-and-Mark-Rylance.html

Don't think he had syphillis, I don't think his behaviours had any physical medical cause really. I think he was simply an all powerful narcissist who in order to justify his actions to himself, believed that he was inspired by God. It didn't help that everyone around him was terrified of his power (rightly) and enabled him to have his wants gratified regardless of the outcome. I think Hilary portrayed the rationalisation TC has to undergo to accept that really well. All that "pick your prince" stuff. TC sold his soul to Henry and he knows it. The Wolesly stuff in the book is simply an excuse he makes to himself to permit him to settle a few scores while delivering what Henry wants.

But does TC still genuinely admire Henry by this point or does he simply know he is past the point of no return?

I think, as his relationship with More, TC is being shown as a person who grew up to fall in love with power itself, and relishes both the intellectual 'game' (thus feeling sorry for Smeaton - 'like crushing a dormouse') and the emotional satisfaction he gains (the rest of his life is emotionally arid).

To weigh in on why Anne was put to death rather than banished to the Tower or a convent etc, it was simply a matter of political expediency, and certainly not peculiar to the Tudor court. When there is a person around whom forces of opposition may rally, it is easier to have that person eliminated rather than see them continue to exist as a symbol of resistance. As long as Anne remained alive, there were members of her family and other nobles interested in toppling Henry who could take advantage of her as emblematic of their cause. Imagine how much more powerful and potentially popular an uprising would be if it were to liberate a queen from prison and bear her aloft as they marched through the streets of London! Much more so than an apparently random shower of disgruntled nobles. Symbolism is important: compare it to the cohesive strength the anti-Apartheid movement drew from Nelson Mandela, say, to understand what can happen when a State doesn't come up with a more permanent solution than banishment.

No I don't think he admires Henry, the man. Henry the King, absolutely.
The expression on TCs face in the final scene said it all.

Not just that BOF (though I totally agree), remember all the fuss and bother it caused H8 when his first wife was alive while trying to marry Anne.
He was trying to marry Jane, the last thing he needed was an even more tricky ex-queen around to cast doubt on the legitimacy of his 3rd marriage.

Good point, yes, definitely.

But Londoners hated Anne, didn't they? I would have thought the real reason she was better off dead was because as long as she's alive you risk there being some people who will argue that his marriage to her was valid so the one to Jane is bigamous. If Anne is dead it doesn't matter if the marriage was valid or not - she's dead, Katharine of Aragon is already dead, the marriage to Jane is real and there's no risk at all of anyone saying future heirs aren't legitimate.

x-post with Katie!

After watching that desperately poignant and chilling execution scene, didn't you just want to push Henry's smug face in?

He didn't leave it long before marrying Jane Seymour, did he?

Definitely!
I cannot imagine what it must have been like to carry on at court after that if you had any feelings for Anne at all, or any sense that she wasn't guilty. Cognitive dissonance must have been big among English nobles in the late 1530s to 40s...

I would have run screaming from the room and hopped a boat to Flanders
In my head, that is.
In reality I would have hugged him back and denied the awfulness of it all.

Yes, Countess, maybe that wasn't the best hypothetical example- I was just making a general point about why it's often more sensible for an embattled State to off its opposition rather than leave them hanging around as a potential focal point for enemy forces. You're quite right- Anne was not popular with the public when she died. Do you think that may have changed to an extent over time after the dignified way she faced her death?

Haha, we keep doing the x post thing countess
IRL I have only one work colleague who is interested in this stuff (and who is not quite so invested) so it's great to chat with others who find it as fascinating as me.

This article lends a lot of weight to the theory that the jousting accident changed H8's personality.

He became engaged to Jane Seymour the day after Anne was executed () and married her 10 days later.

Regarding the "why execute Anne" discussion, Mary did not want to execute Jane Grey but was effectively forced to when her supporters kept rallying behind her - though she did nothing to encourage them.

Yes, poor Jane

Did Jane Seymour have a great deal of choice in the matter?

Clearly Anne had wanted Henry and wanted very much to be Queen, but did Jane?

I think she did.
IIRC there's a story about her wearing a jewel that Henry gave her, and Anne gets very angry and pulls it off her. She didn't have to wear it, did she? Especially not around Anne...!

Also, Jane was a religious conservative (after they were married she knelt before Henry to plead for the lives of the Pilgrims of Grace and he said 'shut up, remember what happened to my last wives') so she might have thought morally she would be doing the right thing in encouraging Henry to get rid of dangerous heretic Anne.

Goodness.
Well, she judged him wrongly then, didn't she.
Poor woman

Its a moot point I know but Henry is buried next to Jane Seymour & she's remembered as his favourite wife. Perhaps had she not died (naturally) then there would have been no more wives. She had the treasured son after all & Anne of Cleves was only divorced as Henry didn't like the look of her, which suggests he wasn't casting his eyes around yet when he was married to Jane.

I thought that the syphilis theory was popular for a while & went some way to assigning the blame re lack of heirs to Henry. However the lack of symptoms & treatment in the records disprove it. I may be wrong though :)

I think I remember a suggestion that Catherine of Aragon may have had syphilis, which would account for her high number of miscarriages/stillbirths.

My own personal feeling is that Jane was only the favourite wife because she provided a son. He may not have loved her as much/as passionately as he did Anne or even Catherine, but she gave him the all important heir. They had only been married about 18 months when she died, so who's to know he wouldn't have got bored of her had she lived.

I think I heard that some historians reckoned Henry had diabetes rather than syphilis, which accounts for the wight gain & ulcerated legs.