Henry VIII, eh? What a bastard.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I just feel there should be an ongoing thread on what a vile piece of work Henry VIII was where people can leave their opinions on the complete and utter appallingness of Henry VIII.

Of course, this being Mumsnet someone will probably come along and say IABVU and he was actually very nice.

(What sparked this off, btw, was me discovering that the Pilgrimage of Grace marched past where my house is, having mustered troops a mile away. Now every time I have to go into the garden at night I will imagine rotting corpses swinging from the trees - he had some of the rebels hanged in their own back gardens and some women got into trouble for cutting down their husband's bodies when they were supposed to leave them there to rot as a warning. What a bastard.)

Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn’s marriages were both annulled, meaning that they were considered never to have happened in the first place, so their daughters were both legally illegitimate.

Interesting fact, his marriages to Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard were also annulled. Legally, he was only actually married twice, to Jane Seymour and his last wife Catherine Parr. He would certainly only ever have considered that he had two wives, and if you’d asked him before he died how many wives he’d had, he would definitely have said two.

As Henry was the self appointed head of the church did he annul them himself or get a minion to do it?
If so, was his first marriage actually legitimate ?
Did he just change the rules to suit himself ?

He got minions to do it. His first marriage was probably morally legitimate. Most historians think it’s unlikely the grounds for divorce (that she slept with his brother Arthur) actually happened. But that’s irrelevant, because it’s the official legal status that mattered - and that said Mary was illegitimate.

Wasn't Arthur her first husband ?
So what was the problem ?

Because the religious rules at the time treated people you’d had sex with as part of your family. So therefore your family could not marry them. So if Catherine had sex with Arthur, the rules at the time said that she then became Henry’s sister and it was illegal for Henry to marry her.

He actually had exactly the same problem with Anne Boleyn, because he’d previously had sex with Mary Boleyn, which made Anne his ‘sister’ that he could not marry. Before he broke from Rome, he was given a dispensation which allowed him (if his first marriage was dissolved) to marry a woman ‘related to him in the second degree of consanguinity’. Which means any woman whose sibling he had slept with.

He had a similar papal dispensation to marry Catherine of Aragon. But there was a rub in that dispensation. Catherine’s parents did not want it to be assumed she had sex with Arthur. So they demanded that the wording of the dispensation was changed from allowing her to marry if the marriage to Arthur had been consummated to saying the marriage had ‘perhaps’ been consummated.

This ambiguous wording, plus her Father Ferdinand’s failure to make a payment meant to ratify the dispensation (he was a notorious tightwad) gave Henry VIII the wiggle room to claim the dispensation was invalid, and his marriage to Catherine of Aragon was illegal.

It’s highly unlikely it was. As Catherine was deeply religious and swore many times at the risk of eternal damnation that the marriage had not been consummated. It’s very unlikely a woman as religious as her would have risked eternal damnation by lying.

But as far as the succession was concerned, her marriage was illegal and her daughter illegitimate. Jane was the rightful Queen.

(Sorry, that should say her father Ferdinand. He was her Dad, not her priest).

Mary I wasn’t a bad person. But she was tainted by a religious mania inherited from her mother.

She and her mother were also incredibly attached to Catherine’s birth family and had a huge affection for them. Unfortunately this was an affection which was hugely exploited by Catherine’s nephew Charles V and later his son Philip II.

Much of the blood of Mary’s reign resulted from dictats from Spain. Including Jane Grey’s execution, which Mary was reluctant to do but Philip demanded.

Ironically, much of the success of Elizabeth’s reign came about because she learnt from her sisters mistakes and ruled pragmatically.

Although, it has to be said: Elizabeth was imprisoned during Mary’s reign and many people encouraged her to execute Elizabeth. Mary never did it. And she also accepted Elizabeth as her heir (although she did not name her).

As a decendant of John Bourchier, He was The Elder Brother of Arthur, he was 14 years older than, HenryV111, and was his Tutor and mentor at Corpus Christie, ge spoke 6 languages, and was a better man, ge was the elder brother of Henry and Henry was told, after Arthur died, when Henry was 8 years old, that he would be made King. Henry cried his eyes out. John understood. Then, after Henry tried his patience. Henry was a pathetic man, he hung drew and quartetered monks, on the eve of his wedding to Anne Bolyen, who was 4 months pregnant. Then he crossed the line. Anne was Johns daughter, so was Mary. John was a gentleman. Fact. ipso factorum.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4638140-henry-viii-waste-of-space?page=9&reply=120353604

Why have I never seen this?
Why didn't I know about history club?

Bumping That Bastard Henry VIII to alert to this Kindle book deal.

https://amzn.eu/d/eFLgVyn

So glad to see this thread bumped, my aforementioned MIL sadly passed away in 2019 but it did bring a smile to my face to see me talking about her Tudor views upthread.

I'm a big fan of the You're Dead to Me podcast. In the early episode titled The Witch Craze, which had the wonderful Suzannah Lipscomb as the expert, they talked about the school of thought that the persecution of women via the witch trials was in part a patriarchal response to the fact that there had been two powerful female monarchs and that it was felt women were gaining too much power and needed to be put back in their box.

ooh how interesting!

Absolutly

Ooh a 12 year old thread that people are still adding to! Going to put my 2 pence worth in, even though the original people have long since moved on.

There is a good theory on why his wives couldn't carry babies to term, or much past term. If Henry had the rare kell antigen then, as with other conditions, a female without the antigen would only be able to carry one baby before her body started rejecting them. Anne B and Jane's successful pregnancies were both the first one. Mary was not the first, but if Henry passed on his recessive gene for that pregnancy, it could still be successful. Looking at his ancestors, more female than male relatives had successful reproduction. It also could explain his decline later on if he developed McLeod syndrome from having the kell antigen.

Along with being a bastard, I think there is strong indication of him having adhd. Lots of energy, threw himself into things to a hyperfocus level and very sociable, which can all be indicators. Most people with adhd don't start a new religion, tear down an older one and execute anyone who disagrees of course. I am surprised that the general population still liked him after that, as the monasteries and nunneries did a lot of the feeding of rhe poor and provided medical attention. Losing that so the king could nab the riches must have been a bitter blow.

Feels apt to bump this with the finale of The Mirror and the Light happening on Sunday!

@SprigatitoYouAndIKnow Losing that so the king could nab the riches must have been a bitter blow.

Agree - this was in part what the Pilgrimage of Grace /Northern Rebellion was about, the objection to the upcoming dissolutions/taking the Church’s assets

tudortimes.co.uk/military-warfare/the-pilgrimage-of-grace/religious-political-causes